Who yokes with who?

[Dracil]

We're not talking about walking around beating people over the head with a Bible here. We're talking about answering questions about Christianity, the existance of God, etc. that may come up in C&E.

Any of us should always be ready to talk about these things whenever they are asked. Look at the thread down there right now about who Cain's sister was. The whole thing is about God and I don't see the mods shutting it down.

Cain's sister (you mean the Cain's wife thread?) actually is relevant to the Crevo debate as it deals directly with the problem that a literal interpretation of genesis brings to the Creationists. And then there's the problem of genetic defects from inbreeding for having such a small population (which is relevant again to Noah's ark)

For TEs and AEs, it's not an issue because the process of evolution would mean the first organism that manages to reach a threshold we might term "human" would still be able to mate with the not-quite humans of its population.

As I said before, it's a common sense thing (and because certain people will probably try to interpret this in the worst way possible, I am *not* implying that you lack common sense).

I mean really, the frequency that I report a thread for being an apologetics thread instead of a C&E thread happens about once every several weeks, so it's not like I'm reporting threads left and right. And usually, it's the newbie posters (<100 posts, partly I think because GA limits you to having 100+ posts to post in there, so they end up going to C&E) that this happens with. That should give you an indication of the level of criteria I'm using.

Also, the sister thread to this thread at C&E might also help you understand where I (and perhaps some others) are coming from in regards to this thread.

 

[Pats]

Cain's sister (you mean the Cain's wife thread?) actually is relevant to the Crevo debate...

And that is precisely what I'm refering to here. It is a relevant thread that does deal with important spiritual questions.

I saw a Creationist in that thread getting flamed by a non-Christian, no big surprise. When she quoted scripture as a way of saying, "It's no skin off my back," a TE actually joined in with the non-Christian on heckling her for quoting of scripture.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Fine. We all disagree. YECs think that TEs are weak sub-christians,and TEs think that YECs are ignorant fundies. This rhetoric never seems to stop, but all of us persist in bandying it back and forth, never changing anyone's mind or doing anything but going in endlessly frustrating circles.

With apologies for my sweeping generalizations of those on both sides of the issue, why do we bother?

TE's and YEC's are like Arabs. If a Gapper appears they will stop fighting each other and both attack the Gapper. Why do you fear us so much? Perhaps because we were resurrected from the obscurity of discredit to present better answers that would discredit your own opinions?

You also indicate this with the statement, 'both sides of the issue'. Friend, there are more than two. TE and YEC are just getting all the attention.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

TE's and YEC's are like Arabs. If a Gapper appears they will stop fighting each other and both attack the Gapper. Why do you fear us so much? Perhaps because we were resurrected from the obscurity of discredit to present better answers that would discredit your own opinions?

You also indicate this with the statement, 'both sides of the issue'. Friend, there are more than two. TE and YEC are just getting all the attention.

i haven't seen anyone attack GAP theory here. if anything all i have seen is a collective yawn on the issue.

 

[Dracil]

*yawn*

 

[shernren]

In my mental taxonomy of creationist beliefs Gap Theory is really close to Apparent Age-ism. Apparent Age-ism says that God created the universe 6,000 years ago and offers no coherent explanation for the apparent 4.5 billion years between creation and present. Gap Theory says that God re-created the universe 6,000 years ago and offers no coherent explanation for the apparent 4.5 billion years before creation. Yawn.

 

[gluadys]

TE's and YEC's are like Arabs. If a Gapper appears they will stop fighting each other and both attack the Gapper. Why do you fear us so much? Perhaps because we were resurrected from the obscurity of discredit to present better answers that would discredit your own opinions?

You also indicate this with the statement, 'both sides of the issue'. Friend, there are more than two. TE and YEC are just getting all the attention.

I don't know where you get the idea that anyone fears you gappers. I consider YECism a threat to good education and theology. Because of their small numbers I don't consider Gappers a threat. But I do consider their position just as incredible as YEC. In some ways, more incredible.

If I were to change my position I would go to OEC. Which is where I started many years ago.

 

[Dracil]

And that is precisely what I'm refering to here. It is a relevant thread that does deal with important spiritual questions.

I saw a Creationist in that thread getting flamed by a non-Christian, no big surprise. When she quoted scripture as a way of saying, "It's no skin off my back," a TE actually joined in with the non-Christian on heckling her for quoting of scripture.

Do you have a link to the specific flame, response, and heckling? Or their post numbers.

 

[Willtor]

TE's and YEC's are like Arabs. If a Gapper appears they will stop fighting each other and both attack the Gapper. Why do you fear us so much? Perhaps because we were resurrected from the obscurity of discredit to present better answers that would discredit your own opinions?

You also indicate this with the statement, 'both sides of the issue'. Friend, there are more than two. TE and YEC are just getting all the attention.

Okay, I actually find this offensive. Let's stick to honest discussion that doesn't attack people groups.

 

[Mandrake]

Yeah, let's try to avoid the racism.

 

[Lilandra]

YECs criticize TEs for not evangelizing to nonbelieving posters. One thing they don't understand is that alot of times YECers make Christianity look preposterous to intelligent nonbelievers.

A number of times, I have witnessed them saying that either the world is less than 10,000 years old like they think Genesis says it is, or throw the Bible out. A nonbeliever will be like,"Sure, no problem!" Then the problem gets compounded by some the YECs gleefully telling nonbelievers they are going to Hell. It is gruesome.

The effect is that Christianity and Christians look irrational and mean-spririted, entrenching nonbelievers and deconverting struggling Christians.

I know that alot of nonbelievers were raised Christian or are more familiar with the Bible than alot of Christians. All I can do is try to be rational myself so I don't make Christianity look nutty. I don't have to hammer them. I've discussed Christianity with a number of them this way.

You just have to remember that they put their pants on one leg at a time just like we do. They aren't any more evil or less than people you would see in churches every Sunday.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Like I've been hiding something? Look out people, Remus believes that witnessing is more important than staying on-topic. Shame on me.

Amazing...the Saving Gospel of Y'shua Messiah should and does take precedence over any debate that's on going...

the Salvation of the lost is priority over anything else a Christian has been called to do....everything else is pretty much a waste of time if they are going to hell when they die....

they'll believe evolution, have a head for science and logic, and not one ounce of faith in the Savior of the world for their soul....

pity...

 

[Gwenyfur]

i haven't seen anyone attack GAP theory here. if anything all i have seen is a collective yawn on the issue.

Case in point...

 

[Lilandra]

Amazing...the Saving Gospel of Y'shua Messiah should and does take precedence over any debate that's on going...

Where else in life do you do this? Do you go to PTA meetings and go," Hi! I know this meeting is about the school but we need to discuss the saving gospel of Y'shua instead because it is more important." How much of that would you get out and people actually heed? Jesus broke bread with nonbelievers and treated then as a good friend would.

the Salvation of the lost is priority over anything else a Christian has been called to do....everything else is pretty much a waste of time if they are going to hell when they die....

Why teach your child math and science then? What is the importance of that? Everything has its season.

they'll believe evolution, have a head for science and logic, and not one ounce of faith in the Savior of the world for their soul....

pity...

The only reason why Christians and nonbelievers accept science is because it explains evidence. God created the world with laws to govern things. Am I believing in science and logic more than Christ when I understand not to walk off a steep cliff because of gravity?

No one lives in an ivory tower. Even YECs have to deal with the real world.

 

[Gwenyfur]

and thanks for reminding me of why I shouldn't bother posting in here...
the derision...
and yes, I've been known to speak to people during breaks in the school board meeting about how G-d feels about a certain topic, and you would be surprised at how many changes happen for teh better because someone is NOT afraid to mention the name of the Savior in context of why something is wrong!

as for the rest of your post, I have no clue where you got all of that twisted tripe...

 

[Lilandra]

I don't recall labeling anything you said "twisted tripe".

I am sorry that you feel that way. But you have made my point. You talk to people sometimes during the break in PTA meetings. I defend the Gospel sometimes to nonbelievers when the subject comes up. I don't aggresively label what they say as twisted tripe and expect them to listen to me.

Maybe this is the source of the frustration you feel in discussing things with people who don't agree with you.

Not an effective way of evangelizing in my opinion.

and thanks for reminding me of why I shouldn't bother posting in here...
the derision...
and yes, I've been known to speak to people during breaks in the school board meeting about how G-d feels about a certain topic, and you would be surprised at how many changes happen for teh better because someone is NOT afraid to mention the name of the Savior in context of why something is wrong!

as for the rest of your post, I have no clue where you got all of that twisted tripe...

 

[Gwenyfur]

Why teach your child math and science then? What is the importance of that? Everything has its season.


The only reason why Christians and nonbelievers accept science is because it explains evidence. God created the world with laws to govern things. Am I believing in science and logic more than Christ when I understand not to walk off a steep cliff because of gravity?

No one lives in an ivory tower. Even YECs have to deal with the real world.

that's not derisive???

There is science and there is religion....and evolution is a religion, science is testable and demonstrable...which evolution is not.

what does the law of gravity have to do with anything? We know that G-d put certain physical laws into place to keep the universe going...that's a given...

what's also a given:

For example, Arno Penzias, co-discoverer of the microwave background radiation and 1978 Nobel Prize recipient in physics, stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978:

The best data we have (concerning the big bang) are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the Bible as a whole.

That even some of the most respected scientists in the world believe that G-d created, it didn't "evolve" from nothing

As for YEC's dealing with the "real" world. Well, we more than most accept that we live in a fallen, cursed world. But, we do so being faithful to G-d, His word, and His Creation...and NOT by putting the creation before the Creator!

 

[The Lady Kate]

they'll believe evolution, have a head for science and logic, and not one ounce of faith in the Savior of the world for their soul....

pity...

The pity is that the blame for this falls squarely on those who put the idiotic idea in their heads that faith and reason cannot co-exist.

 

[Lilandra]

that's not derisive???

No, I was addressing the topic and answering the question why TEs don't always bring up the Gospel in a science discussion. I was trying to increase understanding of the POV.

There is science and there is religion....and evolution is a religion, science is testable and demonstrable...which evolution is not.

evolution is testable and demonstrable and therfore science. I can back this up.

what does the law of gravity have to do with anything? We know that G-d put certain physical laws into place to keep the universe going...that's a given...

what's also a given:

That is what I said physical laws like gravity are there because God created them. That is why when we discuss evolution we are describing a mechanism of creating biodiversity.

That even some of the most respected scientists in the world believe that G-d created, it didn't "evolve" from nothing

More than 95 percent of biologists believe species evolved from other species. These are people that examine the evidence on a daily basis. Not just talk about it on discussion boards.

As for YEC's dealing with the "real" world. Well, we more than most accept that we live in a fallen, cursed world. But, we do so being faithful to G-d, His word, and His Creation...and NOT by putting the creation before the Creator!

TEs believe that the Creation is a testament to how awesome the Creator is. That includes evolution.

 

[The Lady Kate]

that's not derisive???

There is science and there is religion....and evolution is a religion, science is testable and demonstrable...which evolution is not.

This is a flat-out falsehood. Why do you insist on repeating this?

what does the law of gravity have to do with anything? We know that G-d put certain physical laws into place to keep the universe going...that's a given...

And the mechanisms that those laws operate from are not always given... the fact is that we have less support for the theory of gravity than we do for evolution... yet not even the most zealous of YECs seems interested in challenging Gravity.

what's also a given:



That even some of the most respected scientists in the world believe that G-d created, it didn't "evolve" from nothing

Sounds like a Theistic Evolutionist.

As for YEC's dealing with the "real" world. Well, we more than most accept that we live in a fallen, cursed world. But, we do so being faithful to G-d, His word, and His Creation...and NOT by putting the creation before the Creator!

Good thing TEs don't do that either... but I'm wondering what this has to do with the matter at hand.