Who will not inherit the kingdom?

[Der Alte]

So you are not disputing the Corinthian drunks who died under discipline going to heaven? You are not disputing Jesus' servants in Thyatira who died under discipline being in heaven? If you agree with that then my answer was wrong. But if you still say that the drunks and servants in Thyatira did not inherit the kingdom of God then I can not give another answer. I agree that all those who are not in Jesus will be guilty of many sins, even some that are not listed, and will go to the lake of fire.

I would have to go read those vss. "in context" but I'm not interested right now. If you are interested enough quote them and make your comments.

 

[fli]

I would have to go read those vss. "in context" but I'm not interested right now. If you are interested enough quote them and make your comments.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

Did those drunks that went to sleep (died) inherit the kingdom of God?

For the next we need to know the difference between how God treats tares and wheat. Tares are people pretending to be believers, Wheat are true believers,

Matthew 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' 28 "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29 "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'" NIV

In any church there will be wheat and tares. By the above God leaves the tares alone. God will not discipline Satan's children. He waits till the end and punishes them. If God does harm to a person in a church it is discipline and they are His son(s). If God kills them they were His to kill.

Revelation 2:18 "To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ….............. 20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25 Only hold on to what you have until I come. NIV

The witness for those who commit adultery with Jezebel : - Jesus calls them His servants. (Tares are servants of Satan.) By the wheat and tare parable those He kills are wheat.

The discipline follows the same path as in Corinth. They would suffer then death if they did not repent. By verse 23 God considers discipline as payment for their deeds. Her children are those servants who hold to her teachings. Ezekiel 18:1-4 God does not punish children for the sins of the parents,

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

If God disciplines someone they are true sons and not illegitimate. The servants God killed in Thyatira and the drunks disciplined to death in Corinth inherited the kingdom of God.

 

[Fervent]

I think the only way to avoid Paul contradicting Jesus is to understand pistis as faithfulness. In that case his opposition is not to identifying Christianity with how we live, but rather to identifying it with certain legalistic definitions of Christianity.

While this puts him in agreement with Jesus in general terms, I think there are still some remnants of his background as a Pharisee in his use of purity and sin. Jesus cared greatly about how we live, but rejected the Pharisees’ putting it in terms of purity and holiness (terms Jesus never used in talking about people). Indeed he didn’t even speak much about sin (except its forgiveness), probably because it had been abused so badly in by the Pharisees. (When Jesus is accused of consorting with sinners, they are not thieves and murderers, but people who didn’t, and due to economic circumstances maybe couldn’t, obey the Pharisees’ mandates.)

However none of this has much to do with precisely what penalties or rehabilitation people who aren’t faithful will face.

I disagree, there's no separation between Jesus and Paul as Jesus reveals what Habakkuk meant when he wrote "the just shall live by faith." The issue is that faith is not some empty thing but has content and an object. Faith in God isn't about what we believe, per se, but who we are and what we value. Faith justifies not by some obscure accounting trick but because faith is righteousness.

 

[fli]

I would have to go read those vss. "in context" but I'm not interested right now. If you are interested enough quote them and make your comments.

I have more support for both the drunks and adulterers being justified.

Acts 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. NIV

There are 36 sins listed in the law of Moses that there are no sacrifices that could be made for forgiveness. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not listed in the law of Moses. These 36 sins could only be atoned for by the person's death.

Some of these sins are : Numbers 15:30. sins defiantly, Leviticus 18 forbidden sexual unions (adultery) (even with your fathers wife) and Leviticus 20 idolatry, In addition no one could be forgiven unless they repented and asked for forgiveness. In Jesus everything under the law was

Below is a sin that could not be forgiven under the law.

Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. NIV

This sin listed in the law of Moses had no sacrifice and could not be forgive under the law. To be guilty one had to wantonly disregard the law and ones parents. One of the key components of this law is they do not obey their parents commands. If they repented they would not be guilty of breaking this law.

It sounds like the drunks in Corinth were in violation of this law. Under the OT they would have to be stoned to death. But in Jesus they are justified from everything they could not be justified of under the law'

The people of Thyatira were also committing some of the unforgivable sins.

 

[Der Alte]

I have more support for both the drunks and adulterers being justified.
Acts 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. NIV
There are 36 sins listed in the law of Moses that there are no sacrifices that could be made for forgiveness. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not listed in the law of Moses. These 36 sins could only be atoned for by the person's death.
Some of these sins are : Numbers 15:30. sins defiantly, Leviticus 18 forbidden sexual unions (adultery) (even with your fathers wife) and Leviticus 20 idolatry, In addition no one could be forgiven unless they repented and asked for forgiveness. In Jesus everything under the law was
Below is a sin that could not be forgiven under the law.
Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. NIV
This sin listed in the law of Moses had no sacrifice and could not be forgive under the law. To be guilty one had to wantonly disregard the law and ones parents. One of the key components of this law is they do not obey their parents commands. If they repented they would not be guilty of breaking this law.
It sounds like the drunks in Corinth were in violation of this law. Under the OT they would have to be stoned to death. But in Jesus they are justified from everything they could not be justified of under the law'
The people of Thyatira were also committing some of the unforgivable sins.

The only unforgivable sin listed in scripture is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32
(31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​

Anyone still living in sin, any sin, at their death will not be forgiven.
Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

 

[fli]

The only unforgivable sin listed in scripture is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32
(31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​

Anyone still living in sin, any sin, at their death will not be forgiven.
Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Your list is incomplete.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." NIV

If you get the list from all those who will not inherit the kingdom you must add those who have their place in the lake of fire. So to the 22 that you have listed we must add:

All cowards, all unbelieving , and liars.

Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. 3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. 7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." 9 Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." 10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. NIV

It does say that .they lied to God.They are still liars. They lied to the people in the church. All liars have their place in the lake of fire no matter who they lied to. Are the two that I added, cowards and liars, also included in your list now?

 

[fli]

I do not believe that Ananias and wife went to hell. They were not tares because either God let the apostles discipline them or He did. They were Jews so they knew what God thought about lying.

Proverbs 6:16 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. NIV

I said either God or the apostles disciplined Ananias and wife,

Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." NIV

God had made Peter chief steward over His house. He could not bind or loose sins for salvation. He could determine which sins could be bound or loosed for discipline.

 

[fli]

As I've already stated I believe that Ananias and Sapphira were disciplined. God was not going to let 2 hypocrites influence His fledgling church. This event happened too early in the church age for the church to have been infiltrated by unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, NKJV

God gave manifest gifts to all believers when the apostles laid hands on them. These gifts were a confirmation from God that they were true believers. They also provided the church with the talents needed by the early church for protection and growth. The apostles knew this and confirmed every new convert to ensure no unbelievers influenced the church.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. NKJV

In addition to the gifts being a confirmation of salvation, the apostles and other individuals in each church had spiritual discernment. If a person did not have the Holy Spirit those with spiritual discernment would know they were not saved. Therefore, the early church was not influenced by unbelievers introducing false teachings and harming their witness for Jesus.

By the parable of the tares and wheat we know that they were saved. They inherited the kingdom of God when they died. They entered heaven smelling of smoke. Their sins were burnt off so no one knew they died because of their lies.

 

[fli]

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. NKJV

What God is comparing in Matthew 11 above is a not born again John, born of women, to a born from above person in the kingdom of heaven. God's purpose for John's entire life was to point people to Jesus. As far as we know John completely fulfilled God's expectations. I doubt that John ever committed a known sin that he did not repent of. I would also bet, being a good Jew, that he even asked God to forgive his unknown sins he had committed.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NKJV

God has set a standard that the least in heaven is a false teacher and breaker of the law. Also note Jesus is speaking about people who have not repented of the sins. They break the law and teach others to do so. Also note that Jesus said the “least” commandment. By James we know that to break one is to break them all. So no sin is greater or less to break. But we do know that no other sin committed by a person in the kingdom of God will place them under a false teacher and breaker of the law.

Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. NKJV

Note that Jezebel is the only one that Jesus accuses of being a false teacher. The servants are just committing adultery and eating food sacrificed to idols. Therefore, they are not less than the least in the kingdom of God. They are in the kingdom of God as they are Jesus' servants. According to Jesus they are greater than John at the time when Jesus uttered the words in Matthew 11:11. How could that be?

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. NKJV

To commit sin people have to break the law.

Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. NKJV

John was under the law and could sin. The way Paul writes in Romans 7:18 just being in the flesh one in in sin. Therefore; as long as we are in the flesh we are condemned to sin.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

Those servants of Jesus in Thyatira were greater than John because they were not condemned. John when he died could not enter heaven because of his sin. Those sinful servants in Thyatira, that did not repent, died under discipline and went to be with the Lord because they were not condemned.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. NKJV

Does Paul mean anyone professing to be Christian and practicing the above are not a true believers? There are Christians who say that is what Paul is saying. I believe the logic is; “It's obvious that people who practice those things did not repent of their sins, Therefore they cannot be saved. “
Do the epistles support the above conclusion?

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. 33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come. NKJV

Notice in Galatians 5: 21 people who practice drunkenness will not inherit the kingdom. Yet in 1 Corinthians 11: 30 many Corinthians had went to sleep (died physically) because they refused to repent and quit getting drunk during the Lord's supper. Drunkenness by itself is bad but doing it during the Lord's supper compounds the problem. By verse 1Corinthians 11: 32 their dying was a result of discipline by the Lord.

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

They are true sons and not illegitimate. When the Corinthian drunks died they went to heaven. Those drunks in Corinth died under discipline, refusing to repent, and still went to heaven.

I do not believe that receiving Jesus as their savior caused them to start drinking. Becoming a new man didn't start them being problem drunks. More than likely they had a problem with getting drunk prior to salvation.

For discipline to work God had to tell them just why He was disciplining them. They did not repent of their drinking even while God was disciplining them.

They died and went to heaven.

Without holiness no on will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14

 

[fli]

Without holiness no on will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14

Very true. As long as one is in Jesus they have all the righteousness anyone can have. You can't have any more righteousness that one who has never sinned. Jesus has done that. We get His righteousness when we believe in Him. It is no longer of works. Our works have nothing to do with salvation as long as we trust in Jesus .

If God disciplines someone they are in Jesus. God disciplines His Sons. He will punish satans followers when they die.