Who Was Moses Talking To??

[listed]

Jesus Gods Wisdom


Quote
Dunn puts it succinctly: "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus. The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.

This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate. The risk involved with making Wisdom/Word an independent deity was too great for the rabbis to speculate further, but Christians found in the Wisdom tradition an ideal categorical conception within which to place the person of Jesus.

I can not understand how because the word wisdom is a feminine gender word.

 

[listed]

Continued from my last post.

People have seen the Father in some form and heard his voice. Exceptions 5 and 7 from my previous post are going to be the hardest to make congruent with John 6:46 No one has seen the Father. So far I have "qualified" the text to

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the Father.

Now we know from the transfiguration of Jesus that the Father did appear in the form of a bright cloud and at the birth of Jesus the glory of the Father appeared to the shepherds. So to make these verses congruent with John 6:46 we need to think about what form the Father could possibly been seen in and what form we are not allowed to see him. Clearly we can see his presence in a bright cloud or his glory in some amount. Let's try this.

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the body of the Father.


Now let's take a moment to think about why we can't see the Father. I say it is because his glory is so great that we sinful flesh can not handle the greatness of God's glory.

Now let's look at the last exception with Moses.
Ex 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. As discussed in previous posts, God spoke with Moses. Since scripture says it was at times face to face, people have concluded that it was the Son of God that he saw and not the Father.

For some reason Moses was not satisfied with this face time and asked to see the glory of the Lord. 18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

God granted this request of Moses to some limited extent.

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

Verse 20 tells it all. It equates seeing the Lord's face to seeing him. Moses was allowed to see the Lord's back but not his face. Since verse 11 says Moses had spoken face to face with Moses, we have to conclude that this face that could not be seen is of the Father's since he had already seen the face of the Son.

This makes sense that the face is the most glorious part of the body. It also makes sense if you think about a police lineup or a wanted picture. The distinguishing characteristic of a person is the face. So if you only see a person from the back you can't really say you have seen him. You would not be able to identify him. So now I think I have ended with this for John 6:46

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the face of the Father.

This passes all the exceptions of seeing the Father that have been noted in scripture.

To say that Moses saw and talked to Jesus prior to the transfiguration is adding to the Scripture.

 

[listed]

The Father in the NT is the heart mind will ect.the son is his word made flesh and the spirit is his breath....these three are one
When we speak of YHWH these three are one....the word spoken by YHWH is the preincarnate Jesus....untill the time he laid aside his diety and took a form of flesh he was YHWH. not the annointed one(christ).
It was the incarnation that required an annointing.....Jesus spoke the word given by the Father and those words were Spirit and truth.
The earth and all on it were put in subjection to Adam when he took death into himself it infected not only men but the creation itself.
This impurity in the presance of the all mighty holy consuming fire of Gods holiness would have burnt away everything(us in Adam included)so by love God placed a covering...a veil around the creation to seperate us who had become his enemies in death untill such time as he could bring life back into his creation....the gifts and calls of God are without repentance so man still has dominion in creation....this necessetated a new man with life for life to be reconciled....in this new mans flesh the viel was torn and as adam was seperated in spirit first and then the carnel....so in the new man the spirit is restored and soon the carnel.
Jesus told us this life which came through him was defined as knowing the Father and Son throigh the Spirit for to know is the becomeing of one...
For this reason a man will leave his fathers house and cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one....this is prophetic of the fall and the restoration of man
All that to say we have seen manifestations of him....visions of him....his messengers and his son but no man has stood in the presance of his holiness.

Consider this when we are judged at the end of all things....how will this happen...will men come forward one by one listing crimes and hearing judgments....no

Whether jugment seat of christ or white throne the process is the same....you will be in the Holy presance of God. If you have accepted his life in you then all that offends will be burnt out of you...for those who have mourned over that within them that is still of that old death it will be joy and bliss....for those who have only the old death in them it will be torment as all that they are is destroyed in that Holy presance.

If you were one of the recognized leaders at my church I simply would have to leave.

 

[rick357]

If you were one of the recognized leaders at my church I simply would have to leave.

If one searches hard enough they can find a church that teaches pretty much exactly what one believes....of course that has little to do with truth....or growth. One must follow after the Spirit and be lead where he choses if they desire to please God

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

To say that Moses saw and talked to Jesus prior to the transfiguration is adding to the Scripture.

Please debate the comments in the post. Back up your claims with scripture. Short comments of no substance prove nothing.

As JohnRabbit went on extensively, 1Cor 10:4 says "and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Look to Romans 9:6 - 29 for further proof that God the Father did appear to Moses in Ex 33. The Romans text speaks of God's Sovereign Choice. While not using the name Father, we would infer that from it discussing God's will and God's creation. From the Lord's prayer we are taught that it is the Father's will that is done in heaven and we pray that it happens on earth.

Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

So if we agree it is God the Father being referenced in Romans 9 then let's read a quote in the text.

Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God[Father] unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

This is a quote of Ex 33:19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

God the Father says he spoke to Moses.

This is just another piece of scripture that when put together with others, shows Moses was very honored to partially see God the Father.

 

[listed]

If one searches hard enough they can find a church that teaches pretty much exactly what one believes....of course that has little to do with truth....or growth. One must follow after the Spirit and be lead where he choses if they desire to please God

Are you then saying what you say is the truth? Or could you be saying that I only except what I desire? Why would it not also apply to you? What I see in your post is an unjustifiable accusation to manipulate.

 

[rick357]

Are you then saying what you say is the truth? Or could you be saying that I only except what I desire? Why would it not also apply to you? What I see in your post is an unjustifiable accusation to manipulate.

Wrong on both thoughts and definatly not an accusation....my point is of we seek the truth that is an admission of a lack...and often when it comes we dont see it at first. But we depend on the Spirit to lead us into truth and to overcome our lack of recognition.

 

[listed]

Please debate the comments in the post. Back up your claims with scripture. Short comments of no substance prove nothing.

As JohnRabbit went on extensively, 1Cor 10:4 says "and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

This has already been done. I am really tired of seeing Scripture misrepresented to say things it does not say. Christ is a title and not a name. It has been shown that Someone spoke out of a cloud at Jesus' baptism that is not Jesus. If one follows the Scripture from the beginning, Genesis 1 it can not be proven that Moses talked to Jesus prior to the transfiguration. If you have such a reference I will consider it.

If you would like I will be happy to debate you 1 on 1 in a formal debate. There is a section for this. Tell me you will and I will make the request and provide you the short cut to respond. This would cut out the noise here.

 

[listed]

Wrong on both thoughts and definatly not an accusation....my point is of we seek the truth that is an admission of a lack...and often when it comes we dont see it at first. But we depend on the Spirit to lead us into truth and to overcome our lack of recognition.

Can anyone ever come to know the truth? Are you saying one of us is seeking the truth? If so would you kindly say which one of us is? If applied to the Scripture, is anyone telling the truth or are they (Bible authors) only seekers? Never mind I am tired of religious talk.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

One more area needs elaboration, God's glory. So let's just find some scriptures about it.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Psalm 29: 1 Ascribe to the Lord, you heavenly beings, ascribe to the Lord glory and strength. 2 Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name; worship the Lord in the splendor of his holiness. 3 The voice of the Lord is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the Lord thunders over the mighty waters. 4 The voice of the Lord is powerful; the voice of the Lord is majestic. 5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars; the Lord breaks in pieces the cedars of Lebanon. 6 He makes Lebanon leap like a calf, Sirion like a young wild ox. 7 The voice of the Lord strikes with flashes of lightning. 8 The voice of the Lord shakes the desert; the Lord shakes the Desert of Kadesh. 9 The voice of the Lord twists the oaks and strips the forests bare. And in his temple all cry, “Glory!” 10 The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord is enthroned as King forever.

Psalm 29 is a showcase of the power and majesty of God's glory. So where do we find examples of God's glory being revealed on earth?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Let's start with the glory of Jesus. We know he did not come as man in his full glory.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

But, there is a place in scripture where a glimpse of Jesus' heavenly glory is shown.

Mat 17:2 There he[Jesus] was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Now let's look at how scripture records the glory of the Father.

Luke 2: 9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they[shepherds] were terrified. 13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified.

There is a marked difference in the appearance of the Father's glory compared to the Son's. The Father's glory matches the description of Psalm 29; with thunder, powerful, and majestic. The people's reaction upon seeing the Father's glory was one of fear being terrified by God's greatness.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

So now we can look at how the glory of the Lord appeared to Moses and the Israelites. Starting with the first time Moses went up Mount Sinai to receive the ten commandments from God.

Ex 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

The people's reaction was thus.

Ex 20:18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.” 20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.” 21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was. 22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven:

So God the Father spoke from heaven and it was his glory that terrified the people. God then told Moses and some others to come up the mountain.

Ex 24:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Come up to the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. You are to worship at a distance, 2 but Moses alone is to approach the Lord; the others must not come near. And the people may not come up with him.”

9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

The elders saw God, but the description of God is not the same as the glory when the Father appears. This makes me believe that at this time it is the Son who appeared to the elders.

This is not the end, as the Lord told Moses to come up closer.

12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone with the law and commandments I have written for their instruction.” 15 When Moses went up on the mountain, the cloud covered it, 16 and the glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the Lord called to Moses from within the cloud. 17 To the Israelites the glory of the Lord looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain. 18 Then Moses entered the cloud as he went on up the mountain. And he stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights.


I think this is just more evidence that both the Son and the Father appeared to Moses.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Now there was this problem of the golden calf and Moses breaking the first set of tablets so Moses had to go up Mount Sinai again. Before he did this, he asked to see the glory of the Lord as recorded in Ex 33. As discussed in a previous post, Moses was asking for something special for he had already talked to God[the Son] face to face and had already been up on Mount Sinai in the presence of the glory of the Lord[the Father].

God grants his request as recorded in Ex 34:5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” 8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped.

Notice how immediately Moses became reverent of the situation. No other encounter with God was like this. Proof of how special this was is that the glory of God left a shadow on the face of Moses. Further proof that one's glory is on the face.

Ex 34:29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord.

So in heaven they praise the Father. Rev 4:8 Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

And we say Philippians 4:20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Waiting for the day when we see the Father's face and his glory will be our light. Rev 22:4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Tic Tok, Tic Tok, Tic Tok

Or did your clock stop?

 

[Mark51]

I agree that Moses did not see or speak to God directly. Such communication was transmitted through a mediator: Jesus Christ or an angel.-Galatians 3:19.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Bible very clearly says that God spoke to Moses "face to face".
It also talks about how God held His hand over Moses' eyes as He passed by, so Moses could see His back, but not His face, for no man can see God's face and live.
I'm too tired to look the references up for you. Go to e sword, download you a Bible, and do a word search for yourself. Or there is always Bible Gateway...and I'm sure lots of other sources....

According to John 14:9, Jesus is GOD in the flesh, and those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

The Glory of the Lord
Exodus 33:
…19 And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."
20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
21 Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;…
22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

John 14:
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?

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[Amatorreginae]

Throughout Genesis God is introduced as speaking to man, but then we are usually told that it was actually an angel. When Jacob has been injured after wrestling with a stranger, the latter says, "[Y]ou have wrestled with God and with men", and renamed Israel (He Who Wrestles With God). But God told Moses that no one might see God and yet live. So whom are the various people in Genesis speaking to? The clue is in St John's Gospel.

"At the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was a god", and "All things came into existence through him". This 'god' is Christ, who is "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14). St John calls him a god, because he represents God, and in Genesis he is addressed as God, although often recognised as an angel, as when the three angels visited Abraham shortly before the destruction of Sodom. We can't have it both ways, God seen but unable to be seen, even if he were to come in the flesh. Christ is the beginning of God's creation, the first being to be created.