Who Was Moses Talking To??

[JohnRabbit]

That is not what Moses asked God for.

Exodus 33:18(NKJV)
18And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

perhaps you simply don't understand what you read!

moses requested to see God face to face in His full glory!

and i already told you why God said He couldn't grant that request.

if you would have heeded what i said to you in post #40 you probably wouldn't have a problem with your understanding!

I would but you desire only a specific answer which I can not agree to. Should I give a direct answer to either one you will only argue about it.

i think i'll let you tell yourself what this is.

for you said:

"This is called dodging the question"

So other than the answer I already provided the answer you seek will go unwritten from me.

now i wonder where that is!

 

[JohnRabbit]

I did not say that. You are trying to put words in my mouth to support your argument. Essentially you are arguing with yourself.

see?

this is what happens when you don't answer questions!

one is left to "fishing" through your rhetoric to figure out what you're saying!

 

[YosemiteSam]

What about Ex 33:20? Why would God tell Moses this if he asked something else? Is God dodging the question of Moses?

So you're asking what? Why dont you post the scripture you're asking about?

So are you asking if God or Moses is lying? Why would the very Creator need to dodge anything?

 

[listed]

Exodus 33:18(NKJV)
18And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

perhaps you simply don't understand what you read!

moses requested to see God face to face in His full glory!

and i already told you why God said He couldn't grant that request.

if you would have heeded what i said to you in post #40 you probably wouldn't have a problem with your understanding!







i think i'll let you tell yourself what this is.

for you said:

"This is called dodging the question"






now i wonder where that is!

I have no idea where you get your information from. The text simply does not say what you posted.

Whatever Moses asked God for the answer was no.

You still have Moses saying he saw God along with others in 24. That simply disagrees with your John text. Who is telling the truth? Are you claiming the translators had no idea what they were saying? If so based on what?

 

[listed]

So you're asking what? Why dont you post the scripture you're asking about?

So are you asking if God or Moses is lying? Why would the very Creator need to dodge anything?

Rabbit posted it for me. It is found in Ex 33. Why will you not read the text for yourself?

 

[JohnRabbit]

I have no idea where you get your information from. The text simply does not say what you posted.

Whatever Moses asked God for the answer was no.

what do you mean, whatever?

do you even know what moses asked for?

it sounds as if you don't!

 

[JohnRabbit]

Rabbit posted it for me. It is found in Ex 33. Why will you not read the text for yourself?

why can't you simply say what you're talking about?

what are you trying to point out in ex 33?

 

[JohnRabbit]

You still have Moses saying he saw God along with others in 24. That simply disagrees with your John text. Who is telling the truth? Are you claiming the translators had no idea what they were saying? If so based on what?

all of this is covered in the proof i presented!

you are coming very close to being assigned to the "hard of reading" group!

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

when the bible refers to the "Angel of the Lord", often, it is referring to the One we know as the Christ.

moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!


and now the "coup de gras"![/COLOR]

1 Corinthians 10:1-4(NKJV)
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3all ate the same spiritual food,
4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.


the bible says it was Christ Who spoke to moses!

"and that Rock was Christ"

I will summarize this "proof".

Point 1. Scripture says the Son/Christ accompanied Moses.
Point 2. Therefore ALL appearances to Moses were by the Son

Point 1, I won't argue this point. You have proven it.

Point 2 is purely an assumption and not proven at all. You don't even entertain the thought that Moses could have been spoken to by more than one person of God.

Now let's look at some scripture that records the Lord speaking to Moses.

Ex 23:20 “See, I[Lord and God the Father] am sending an angel[Son of God] ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.


Again the following scripture says the Lord will send his angel only this time it offers up the reason why the Lord will not accompany the Israelites.

Ex 33:2 I will send an angel[the Son] before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I[Lord and God the Father] will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”

So now we have two "contradicting" scripture verses.
1) The Lord will not go with Israel.
2) Christ accompanied Israel.


Using the same logic you used to prove that Christ spoke to Moses in your soliloquy now proves my point that the Father also spoke to Moses. Exodus 33 records a Lord that spoke to Moses but did not accompany Israel. Your "coup de gras" 1 Cor 10 states that Christ accompanied Israel.

Therefore we must conclude that the Father and Son both interacted with Moses.

 

[rick357]

The bible is clear if we accept what it says....Jesus is the word manifest in the flesh...he came out from God and he is God....the express image....because when God speaks he bears no false witness...what he says is him....he is one.

 

[BobRyan]

The capital letters LORD are used for YHWH - which is the highest name for God in the Bible. So then in the Bible, in the OT text we find it used for both God the Father and God the Son. Very difficult to know when it is one vs the other speaking.

But there are places where we can see that BOTH of them are being referenced - in some cases One talking about the Other.

No doubt that at Sinai both may well have been there as well.

But when it comes to actually "seeing God" we know that John 1 makes it clear that no one has seen the Father - (Which is not to say that angels have not seen him - but rather that fallen man has not seen him - in our fallen state).

So if someone is SEEING God as in the case of Jacob - then we know it cannot be God the Father.

To the extent that Moses SEES God - or the 70 who are with Moses SEE God - it cannot be God the Father.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

The capital letters LORD are used for YHWH - which is the highest name for God in the Bible. So then in the Bible, in the OT text we find it used for both God the Father and God the Son. Very difficult to know when it is one vs the other speaking.

But there are places where we can see that BOTH of them are being referenced - in some cases One talking about the Other.

No doubt that at Sinai both may well have been there as well.

But when it comes to actually "seeing God" we know that John 1 makes it clear that no one has seen the Father - (Which is not to say that angels have not seen him - but rather that fallen man has not seen him - in our fallen state).

So if someone is SEEING God as in the case of Jacob - then we know it cannot be God the Father.

To the extent that Moses SEES God - or the 70 who are with Moses SEE God - it cannot be God the Father.

in Christ,

Bob

I want to know from you how you distinguish Ex 24 and 33 as the same or different. Are the same words used? If so how can there be a difference?

 

[listed]

I will summarize this "proof".

Point 1. Scripture says the Son/Christ accompanied Moses.
Point 2. Therefore ALL appearances to Moses were by the Son

Point 1, I won't argue this point. You have proven it.

Point 2 is purely an assumption and not proven at all. You don't even entertain the thought that Moses could have been spoken to by more than one person of God.

Now let's look at some scripture that records the Lord speaking to Moses.

Ex 23:20 “See, I[Lord and God the Father] am sending an angel[Son of God] ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.


Again the following scripture says the Lord will send his angel only this time it offers up the reason why the Lord will not accompany the Israelites.

Ex 33:2 I will send an angel[the Son] before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I[Lord and God the Father] will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”

So now we have two "contradicting" scripture verses.
1) The Lord will not go with Israel.
2) Christ accompanied Israel.


Using the same logic you used to prove that Christ spoke to Moses in your soliloquy now proves my point that the Father also spoke to Moses. Exodus 33 records a Lord that spoke to Moses but did not accompany Israel. Your "coup de gras" 1 Cor 10 states that Christ accompanied Israel.

Therefore we must conclude that the Father and Son both interacted with Moses.

The word Christ is a title and not a name.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

now check this out![/COLOR]

Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

God talked to moses from the cloud. so, we know who's in the cloud. from the verses that john wrote, i.e. jn 1:1,18, we know this could not be God the Father.

What you claim is simply not true. God the Father has appeared in a cloud and talked from heaven. John 1:18 does not rule out this happening.

Mat 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Mat 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified.

Luke 2: 9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The word Christ is a title and not a name.

I only used Christ because that was the word used by JohnRabbit in the text that I quoted. I wanted to make it clear that the name I used, Son of God, is the same as his Christ. The Son of God is eternal. Jesus lived as man for 33 years. He is the Christ.

Happy?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Jesus Gods Wisdom


Quote
Dunn puts it succinctly: "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus. The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.

This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate. The risk involved with making Wisdom/Word an independent deity was too great for the rabbis to speculate further, but Christians found in the Wisdom tradition an ideal categorical conception within which to place the person of Jesus.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

So many are hung up on the text of John 6:46 No one has seen the Father and Ex 33:20 no one may see me and live. Should we read them in an absolute legalistic manner, or should we find a meaning that is congruent with all of scripture?

If we found some obvious exceptions to the text, than that rules out an exact legalistic interpretation.

I am going out on a limb and say millions have seen the Father. They just happen to be in heaven.

Second exception, two people went to heaven and saw the Father without dying.

Third exception, people have been raised from the dead; having come from heaven, they did see the Father.

Fourth exception, Stephen “full of the Holy Spirit” looked up to heaven and saw the Father.

Fifth exception, people have heard and seen the Father in some form, like a cloud, voice from heaven or just his glory shining.

Sixth exception, Jesus said “anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”.

Seventh exception, Moses saw the glory of God.

In the OP, Angelquill qualified John 1:18 that says no one has seen God to mean no one has seen the Father. I am going to do the same thing to John 6:46 no one has seen the Father, using scripture of course.

"No one has seen the Father"

My first qualification is with the word one. To it I would add in the flesh. This makes John 6:46 congruent with exceptions 1 through 4.

"No one in the flesh has seen the Father"

My second qualification is with seen. To it I would add with their eyes. This passes exception 6 since Jesus was talking about a spiritual seeing and knowing.

"No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the Father"

There are two exceptions left, but this post is long enough. I'll address them next. What I hope to have accomplished is to show how we "qualify" one text to make it congruent with other scripture.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Continued from my last post.

People have seen the Father in some form and heard his voice. Exceptions 5 and 7 from my previous post are going to be the hardest to make congruent with John 6:46 No one has seen the Father. So far I have "qualified" the text to

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the Father.

Now we know from the transfiguration of Jesus that the Father did appear in the form of a bright cloud and at the birth of Jesus the glory of the Father appeared to the shepherds. So to make these verses congruent with John 6:46 we need to think about what form the Father could possibly been seen in and what form we are not allowed to see him. Clearly we can see his presence in a bright cloud or his glory in some amount. Let's try this.

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the body of the Father.


Now let's take a moment to think about why we can't see the Father. I say it is because his glory is so great that we sinful flesh can not handle the greatness of God's glory.

Now let's look at the last exception with Moses.
Ex 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. As discussed in previous posts, God spoke with Moses. Since scripture says it was at times face to face, people have concluded that it was the Son of God that he saw and not the Father.

For some reason Moses was not satisfied with this face time and asked to see the glory of the Lord. 18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

God granted this request of Moses to some limited extent.

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

Verse 20 tells it all. It equates seeing the Lord's face to seeing him. Moses was allowed to see the Lord's back but not his face. Since verse 11 says Moses had spoken face to face with Moses, we have to conclude that this face that could not be seen is of the Father's since he had already seen the face of the Son.

This makes sense that the face is the most glorious part of the body. It also makes sense if you think about a police lineup or a wanted picture. The distinguishing characteristic of a person is the face. So if you only see a person from the back you can't really say you have seen him. You would not be able to identify him. So now I think I have ended with this for John 6:46

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the face of the Father.

This passes all the exceptions of seeing the Father that have been noted in scripture.

 

[rick357]

Continued from my last post.

People have seen the Father in some form and heard his voice. Exceptions 5 and 7 from my previous post are going to be the hardest to make congruent with John 6:46 No one has seen the Father. So far I have "qualified" the text to

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the Father.

Now we know from the transfiguration of Jesus that the Father did appear in the form of a bright cloud and at the birth of Jesus the glory of the Father appeared to the shepherds. So to make these verses congruent with John 6:46 we need to think about what form the Father could possibly been seen in and what form we are not allowed to see him. Clearly we can see his presence in a bright cloud or his glory in some amount. Let's try this.

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the body of the Father.

Now let's take a moment to think about why we can't see the Father. I say it is because his glory is so great that we sinful flesh can not handle the greatness of God's glory.

Now let's look at the last exception with Moses.
Ex 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. As discussed in previous posts, God spoke with Moses. Since scripture says it was at times face to face, people have concluded that it was the Son of God that he saw and not the Father.

For some reason Moses was not satisfied with this face time and asked to see the glory of the Lord. 18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

God granted this request of Moses to some limited extent.

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

Verse 20 tells it all. It equates seeing the Lord's face to seeing him. Moses was allowed to see the Lord's back but not his face. Since verse 11 says Moses had spoken face to face with Moses, we have to conclude that this face that could not be seen is of the Father's since he had already seen the face of the Son.

This makes sense that the face is the most glorious part of the body. It also makes sense if you think about a police lineup or a wanted picture. The distinguishing characteristic of a person is the face. So if you only see a person from the back you can't really say you have seen him. You would not be able to identify him. So now I think I have ended with this for John 6:46

No one in the flesh has seen with their eyes the face of the Father.

This passes all the exceptions of seeing the Father that have been noted in scripture.

The Father in the NT is the heart mind will ect.the son is his word made flesh and the spirit is his breath....these three are one
When we speak of YHWH these three are one....the word spoken by YHWH is the preincarnate Jesus....untill the time he laid aside his diety and took a form of flesh he was YHWH. not the annointed one(christ).
It was the incarnation that required an annointing.....Jesus spoke the word given by the Father and those words were Spirit and truth.
The earth and all on it were put in subjection to Adam when he took death into himself it infected not only men but the creation itself.
This impurity in the presance of the all mighty holy consuming fire of Gods holiness would have burnt away everything(us in Adam included)so by love God placed a covering...a veil around the creation to seperate us who had become his enemies in death untill such time as he could bring life back into his creation....the gifts and calls of God are without repentance so man still has dominion in creation....this necessetated a new man with life for life to be reconciled....in this new mans flesh the viel was torn and as adam was seperated in spirit first and then the carnel....so in the new man the spirit is restored and soon the carnel.
Jesus told us this life which came through him was defined as knowing the Father and Son throigh the Spirit for to know is the becomeing of one...
For this reason a man will leave his fathers house and cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one....this is prophetic of the fall and the restoration of man
All that to say we have seen manifestations of him....visions of him....his messengers and his son but no man has stood in the presance of his holiness.

Consider this when we are judged at the end of all things....how will this happen...will men come forward one by one listing crimes and hearing judgments....no

Whether jugment seat of christ or white throne the process is the same....you will be in the Holy presance of God. If you have accepted his life in you then all that offends will be burnt out of you...for those who have mourned over that within them that is still of that old death it will be joy and bliss....for those who have only the old death in them it will be torment as all that they are is destroyed in that Holy presance.

 

[listed]

I only used Christ because that was the word used by JohnRabbit in the text that I quoted. I wanted to make it clear that the name I used, Son of God, is the same as his Christ. The Son of God is eternal. Jesus lived as man for 33 years. He is the Christ.

Happy?

Maybe I read your post more carefully than you wrote it.