Who Was Moses Talking To??

JAL said:

I specifically said that I'm not convinced it's worth debating whether it was the Father or Son who appeared to the OT saints, as both figures are equally glorious.

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Where is this stated in scripture, because there is a perfectly clear and concise statement by Jesus that the Father is greater? There are also multiple other places where scripture alludes to the Father being greater.

Please don't create new meanings to the word one. The Bible does not teach it to mean equal. My wife and I are one, but definitely not equal and at death will separate. The church is one body with Christ the head, but I dare you to say you are his equal along with everyone else being equal.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Where is this stated in scripture, because there is a perfectly clear and concise statement by Jesus that the Father is greater? There are also multiple other places where scripture alludes to the Father being greater.

Please don't create new meanings to the word one. The Bible does not teach it to mean equal. My wife and I are one, but definitely not equal and at death will separate. The church is one body with Christ the head, but I dare you to say you are his equal along with everyone else being equal.

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they say that a broken clock is right twice a day!

so in that respect, i guess even JAL may hit upon something right every now and then!

for instance, look at what paul says here:

Philippians 2:5-6(NKJV)
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

and what Jesus said in His prayer:

John 17:5(NKJV)
5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

these two verse surely imply equality (see also jn 1:1)!

however, Jesus did say that the Father was greater than He, per jn 14:28!

and paul said:

1 Corinthians 11:3(NKJV)
3But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


there's no contradiction, it's just that They walk in agreement (jn 10:30)!

for God inspired amos to write:

Amos 3:3(NKJV)
3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?


so surely the agreement between God and the Word was that God (the Father) would be the Head!

JohnRabbit said:

i thought my "mike" was on!




it's a good thing we've got you on record!

let's go to the "video tape"!

you said:

"Had Moses lived just a little longer, and kept maturing spiritually, perhaps he soon would have been able to withstand God's face."

however, God said:

Exodus 33:20(NKJV)
20But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

so no matter how you try to "paint" moses, what part of NO MAN do you not understand?

what you said is a BLATANT contradiction to the text, like i said!





we find the correct meaning of a verse by using isaiah's principle - (isa 28:10) and being bound by what peter said - (2pet 1:20)!

i googled "limiting force" and found nothing of which you speak!

however from this website, What is limiting force, i found this:

What is limiting force?
limiting force is basically just friction

like i told you before, "QUIT DRINKING THE KOOL-AID"!





no, i used ex 24:17 to express my view!

i think you mean this:
View attachment 133376






didn't ignore it. i explained it!









i'm sorry i can't go along with your "limiting force" that leads to conjecture and embellishment which puts you contradicting the scripture on so many levels!

i'll just let paul break it to you:

Romans 5:10(NKJV)
10For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

(for the "hard of reading", reconciled means atoned! )

Colossians 1:21-22(NKJV)
21And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—


i guess you are part of the "hard of reading" group!

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This is dishonest debating. You repeatedly ignore the points that I made and even pretend that I didn't make them. For example you'll make a charge of contradiction, which I then rebut, then you repeat the same charge without addressing my rebuttal. Unsubscribing...

AnticipateHisComing said:

Where is this stated in scripture, because there is a perfectly clear and concise statement by Jesus that the Father is greater? There are also multiple other places where scripture alludes to the Father being greater.

Please don't create new meanings to the word one. The Bible does not teach it to mean equal. My wife and I are one, but definitely not equal and at death will separate. The church is one body with Christ the head, but I dare you to say you are his equal along with everyone else being equal.

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I meant to respond briefly to this one and forgot.

There is but one God. Yes there are three volitions/Persons but it's still one God so it's hard for me to believe that one Person is greater than another.

I think Jesus was referring to His condition on earth - on earth the Father was greater than Christ in a qualified sense:
(1) Temporarily, Christ was ignorant.
(2) Temporarily, Christ was weak.
(3) Temporarily, Christ was (potentially) susceptible to temptation.
(4) Temporarily, Christ was mortal.
Here again, Scripture is best understood if the verses are properly taken in context (what I refer to as properly qualifying the assertions made by the writers). Ok, unsubscribing...

JAL said:

Unsubscribing...

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perhaps it's for the best, with your constant contradicting of the scripture!

JAL said:

Unsubscribing...

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Why JAL, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

Originally Posted by JohnRabbit

JAL said:

This is dishonest debating. You repeatedly ignore the points that I made and even pretend that I didn't make them. For example you'll make a charge of contradiction, which I then rebut, then you repeat the same charge without addressing my rebuttal. Unsubscribing...

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It doesn't seem fair, does it?



.

JohnRabbit said:

Philippians 2:5-6(NKJV)
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

John 17:5(NKJV) 5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Amos 3:3(NKJV) 3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?

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Let’s try a different translation, ESV, with more context on the “equal with God” text.

Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Read even more of Philippians 2 to understand the text teaching us to be humble, just as Jesus was humbled when he took human form, giving up his godly form. Hebrews 2 also speaks the same that Jesus was made lower as man. Philippians 2 never uses the name Father and never says Jesus is equal to the Father. Contrast this with clear texts that say the Father is greater. You dismiss these believing a lie that one means equal, shared glory means equal glory and in agreement means equal.


I have to agree with JAL on one thing. If you think the Father and Son are equal in glory, than there is no point in arguing who Moses saw.

If you believe as I do that the glory of God the Father is so great that we mortals would die at the sight of his unveiled glory, then we can understand the Son as having a reduced glory that has even allowed man to wrestle with as Jacob did. Note that even at the transfiguration where Jesus shone like the sun, it was not till the Father’s partial greatness appeared, veiled in a cloud, that caused the three disciples to be terrified.

This understanding reconciles that John 14:9 speaks of seeing the Father in Jesus in a spiritual sense and the Ex 33 text speaking of physical sight of the Father.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Let’s try a different translation, ESV, with more context on the “equal with God” text.

Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Read even more of Philippians 2 to understand the text teaching us to be humble, just as Jesus was humbled when he took human form, giving up his godly form. Hebrews 2 also speaks the same that Jesus was made lower as man. Philippians 2 never uses the name Father and never says Jesus is equal to the Father. Contrast this with clear texts that say the Father is greater. You dismiss these believing a lie that one means equal, shared glory means equal glory and in agreement means equal.


I have to agree with JAL on one thing. If you think the Father and Son are equal in glory, than there is no point in arguing who Moses saw.

If you believe as I do that the glory of God the Father is so great that we mortals would die at the sight of his unveiled glory, then we can understand the Son as having a reduced glory that has even allowed man to wrestle with as Jacob did. Note that even at the transfiguration where Jesus shone like the sun, it was not till the Father’s partial greatness appeared, veiled in a cloud, that caused the three disciples to be terrified.

This understanding reconciles that John 14:9 speaks of seeing the Father in Jesus in a spiritual sense and the Ex 33 text speaking of physical sight of the Father.

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i simply disagree!

AnticipateHisComing

If you went back and started reading at page 6 you would understand that it wasnt the Father.

YosemiteSam said:

AnticipateHisComing

If you went back and started reading at page 6 you would understand that it wasnt the Father.

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So why are we on page 12 if the debate was settled on page 6? Maybe someone convinced you back then, but this is not the first time this OP has been discussed and it won't be the last time.

I believe there is more value in searching scriptures to defend what you believe than there is in reading someone else's definitive oracle that this is how it is.

If what you believe is based on man's teaching, you can believe anything, but there is no confidence that it is the truth.

AnticipateHisComing said:

So why are we on page 12 if the debate was settled on page 6? Maybe someone convinced you back then, but this is not the first time this OP has been discussed and it won't be the last time.

I believe there is more value in searching scriptures to defend what you believe than there is in reading someone else's definitive oracle that this is how it is.

If what you believe is based on man's teaching, you can believe anything, but there is no confidence that it is the truth.

Click to expand...

your point has been noted.

i understand that you don't agree with the position that i stated.

so given this:


Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

they saw God, according to this passage.

however, john writes:


1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time...


how do you explain this "seeming" contradiction"?

AnticipateHisComing said:

So why are we on page 12 if the debate was settled on page 6? Maybe someone convinced you back then, but this is not the first time this OP has been discussed and it won't be the last time.

I believe there is more value in searching scriptures to defend what you believe than there is in reading someone else's definitive oracle that this is how it is.

If what you believe is based on man's teaching, you can believe anything, but there is no confidence that it is the truth.

Click to expand...

That's why those of you that are hard of reading make such great entertainers. If you went back and read you would find that JohnRabbit and I both quoted just scriptures. The scriptures need no help from any of us to interpret.

So okay, I think JohnRabbit just ask you for your view piont and proof... Please use scripture as most of the time you hard of reading refuse to do so.

Tic Tok, Tic Tok, Tic Tok

JohnRabbit said:

your point has been noted.

i understand that you don't agree with the agree with the position that i stated.

so given this:


Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

they saw God, according to this passage.

however, john writes:


1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time...


how do you explain this "seeming" contradiction"?

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The simple fact is “they” don’t explain it! Ever, Ever, Ever! They will use one verse and poof or abracadabra they are expert theologians, ministers or prophets.

Folks will come out here and try to dazzle one with meaningless words or phrases. I am not sure of what “qualify the statement” or “limit the force” means or offers, even to the round table.

“Limiting the force” makes me feel like I’m watching an episode of George Lucas’ Star Wars, yet it gets mixed with Conjunction Function Schoolhouse Rock because suddenly I have to “qualify a statement.” So it’s a double nightmare of structuring sentences and little 800 year old green guys floating aircraft up out of swamps on another planet.

One thing Jal said that was true was this was not an honest debate. That is true and that is because he failed to honestly bring to the table substantial and legitimate evidence to support how he viewed the subject. So the discussion or debate remains one-sided. You would think that in such a case as this, that one might go review in further detail what he/she understands about the subject at hand, returning only to enhance the on goings of the conversation. How much could we all learn if these debates and discussions were exactly that? But human reasoning and feeling are always involved and the biggest one being, “I am always right!” The second one translates into “I know you’re wrong because I am right, but I don’t need to validate my claim.” Which either they cannot support it or don’t know how, which is it?

The bible is full of subjects too numerous to list. But often we find the ones most discussed in these forums are repeated over and over again. Such as:
1) Who and what is God?
2) Whom did Moses talk to on Mt. Sinai?
3) What are the commandments of God and do they apply today?
4) What is man and what is his purpose?

Those few and fundamental questions if understood build upon each other a foundation even a greater understanding.

But that is hard to do when the debate or discussion lacks honest presentation and relevance from both sides.

So no, JohnRabbit, they will not answer this post or question you presented simply because they would have to “limit the force” to the facts and “qualify their statements” with scripture to present their view.

JohnRabbit said:

your point has been noted.

i understand that you don't agree with the agree with the position that i stated.

so given this:


Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

they saw God, according to this passage.

however, john writes:


1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time...


how do you explain this "seeming" contradiction"?

Click to expand...

The simple fact is “they” don’t explain it! Ever, Ever, Ever! They will use one verse and poof or abracadabra they are expert theologians, ministers or prophets.

Folks will come out here and try to dazzle one with meaningless words or phrases. I am not sure of what “qualify the statement” or “limit the force” means or offers, even to the round table.

“Limiting the force” makes me feel like I’m watching an episode of George Lucas’ Star Wars, yet it gets mixed with Conjunction Function Schoolhouse Rock because suddenly I have to “qualify a statement.” So it’s a double nightmare of structuring sentences and little 800 year old green guys floating aircraft up out of swamps on another planet.

One thing Jal said that was true was this was not an honest debate. That is true and that is because he failed to honestly bring to the table substantial and legitimate evidence to support how he viewed the subject. So the discussion or debate remains one-sided. You would think that in such a case as this, that one might go review in further detail what he/she understands about the subject at hand, returning only to enhance the on goings of the conversation. How much could we all learn if these debates and discussions were exactly that? But human reasoning and feeling are always involved and the biggest one being, “I am always right!” The second one translates into “I know you’re wrong because I am right, but I don’t need to validate my claim.” Which either they cannot support it or don’t know how, which is it?

The bible is full of subjects too numerous to list. But often we find the ones most discussed in these forums are repeated over and over again. Such as:
1) Who and what is God?
2) Whom did Moses talk to on Mt. Sinai?
3) What are the commandments of God and do they apply today?
4) What is man and what is his purpose?

Those few and fundamental questions if understood build upon each other a foundation even a greater understanding.

But that is hard to do when the debate or discussion lacks honest presentation and relevance from both sides.

So no, JohnRabbit, they will not answer this post or question you presented simply because they would have to “limit the force” to the facts and “qualify their statements” with scripture to present their view.


Conjunction Junction....Best School House Rock - YouTube

YosemiteSam said:

Tic Tok, Tic Tok, Tic Tok

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Sam it seems you're going to have to change the batteries in that clock!

Originally Posted by AnticipateHisComing

So why are we on page 12 if the debate was settled on page 6? Maybe someone convinced you back then, but this is not the first time this OP has been discussed and it won't be the last time.

I believe there is more value in searching scriptures to defend what you believe than there is in reading someone else's definitive oracle that this is how it is.

If what you believe is based on man's teaching, you can believe anything, but there is no confidence that it is the truth.
​

Click to expand...

JohnRabbit said:

your point has been noted.

i understand that you don't agree with the position that i stated.

so given this:

Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

they saw God, according to this passage.

however, john writes:


1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12 No one has seen God at any time...

how do you explain this "seeming" contradiction"?

Click to expand...

I myself have never seen a real sapphire.

Used in the Greek NT book of Revelation of the Christian Bible.

KJV Search Results for "sapphire"
"sapphire"
occurs 9 times in 9 verses in the KJV.

Rev 21:19
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.
The first foundation jasper;
the second, sapphire; G4552
the third, a chalcedony;
the fourth, an emerald;

4552. sappheiros sap'-fi-ros of Hebrew origin (5601); a "sapphire" or lapis-lazuli gem:--sapphire.
5601 cappiyr sap-peer' from 5608; a gem (perhaps used for scratching other substances), probably the sapphire:--sapphire.

Sapphire: The gemstone Sapphire information and pictures
The Precious Gemstone Sapphire

Sapphire is the most precious and valuable blue gemstone. It is a very desirable gemstone due to its excellent color, hardness, durability, and luster. In the gem trade, Sapphire without any color prefix refers to the blue variety of the mineral Corundum.

However, the term Sapphire encompasses all other gem varieties and colors of Corundum as well, excluding Ruby, the red variety of Corundum, which has its own name since antiquity.



.

Angelquill said:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

That seems pretty final, doesn't it? No man hath seen God at any time.

Oh, but wait!

Exo_33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Oh, well...maybe Moses just thought he was speaking face to face with God. Maybe it was just a vision, or something...

Exo_34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
Exo_34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

Hmmm....and then, again, evidently, something must have happened.

So, could John have been wrong?


Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Ahhh, wait...there is the clue.

the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So, the only possibility is that Moses had to have been speaking to the Second Person of the Trinity...for Jesus is also God...

It was God Who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses...God With Us, or Immanuel.
We know Him as Jesus Christ...

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In essence, Gideon had seen the Lord face-to face and feared he would die:

"And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die." ~Judges 6:22-23

Just as Moses had, Gideon was talking to God, face to face.

YHWH of OT is the one God...he speaks his word and he has breath....In NT his word manifested in the flesh and was empowered by his breath...so we have three in one...
The Father...the heart and mind of YHWH

from the heart the mouth speaks...liars speak lies...decieved speak deception...truth speaks truth...life speaks life...

The Word made flesh...as a child comes from within its mother...so the living word came from God and became his ONLY begotton Son.

And as our breath empowers our words so the Spirit empowered Jesus and as his gift comes in and abides within all who believe

As to having seen God there is a seperation in place to keep the consuming fire of Gods Holy glory from consuming sinful men...that veil was in place untill the death of Jesus...and even now we are hidden in him...till corruption puts on incorruption.

Can you see..."I and my Father are one"

So to OP Moses spoke to YHWH the one God...who has revealed himself to men in three functions for their redemption...these three are one

As a note...Jesus was the word before his manifestation...but before he did this he laid aside his diety...in the flesh he was completly a man but with YHWH's nature...who finding himself in the form of a servant became obediant unto death.

rick357 said:

YHWH of OT is the one God...

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I'm with you so far.

he speaks his word and he has breath....

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now you lost me!

In NT his word manifested in the flesh and was empowered by his breath...

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where in scripture do you find this?