Who Was Moses Talking To??

[YosemiteSam]

(sigh).
Why do YOU think God covered Moses when passing by? That is, why did He provide the covering only when facing Moses and then withdrew the covering when His back was to Moses? (Personally I'll bet you'll reply with some random conjecture).

Or maybe you're debating whether it was God the Father or God the Son. (That disctinction isn't generally important to me when it comes to visions since either of the two Persons is likely glorious enough to satisfy my need for beauty).

Well, I read your post and the replies to it and would have to agree that you added your own conjecture into the scriptures.

Moses asked to see God in His glory... God answered him why Moses could not. 33.20 20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Why? Because Moses would die!!! So it had nothing to do with maturity or some spirituality with Moses, it had to do with the fact He was a man. That is what the bible gives as the answer. Man cannot see God in His full glory and live.

Your last statement is even more troublesome. And I quote you "Or maybe you're debating whether it was God the Father or God the Son. (That disctinction isn't generally important to me ..."

Actually it is important in understanding the scriptures. And it is very apparent from the scriptures to whom Moses spoke: the Lord,the Word, "the logos",the spokesperson for God and the one who became Christ...jn 1 1-3 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Furthermore Phil 2.6-8. Its worth posting here:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The very God who emptied himself of the glory He had that he may pay for the penalty of our sin. That the penalty of OUR sins could be paid! Jn 1.29 Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

In light of Gen 1.26 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them..

Now which part of "God", "US" , "OUR" or "OWN" do you suppose Moses spoke? 1 Cor 10.4
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Is this not clear? Do not the scriptures interpret themselves? Maybe you might ask, how is it that God emptied Himself of Glory? We find that Jesus prayed in jn 17.5 for the return of the Glory He once held.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Who declared who? Who revealed who? jn 17.24-26 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Again Matt 11.27 27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Scripture shows:
Christ came to reveal the Father.
It was Christ who was with the Father before the foundation of the world. It was Christ who followed Israel through the sea and spoke to them from Mt Sinai.
It was Christ, the other half of the "US", "OUR" that emptied himself of the glory which he held before the foundations of the worldto pay the penalty for you and I. Thank you!

 

[JAL]

this thread was started because there are some in this forum that don't believe that it was Jesus Who talked to moses and has nothing to do with more or less glory. however, this fact does have implications on other points of doctrine.



as far as moses' maturity, what you have written about it is conjecture, even though you cite the verses from numbers.


here's proof of your conjecture!

you said:

"Had Moses lived just a little longer, and kept maturing spiritually, perhaps he soon would have been able to withstand God's face."

so taking what you said, one can take scripture and prove you wrong!

Exodus 33:20(NKJV)
20But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

see?

God says that no man can see His face and live!

so your conjecture on moses' maturity would simply contradict the verse!


i'm not trying to down or belittle you. i'm actually trying to be a help!

we simply cannot add, take away from or embellish the scripture as we are admonished not to do so - per 2pet 1:20.

But that's a silly way of 'refuting' my view.

Suppose I said, "No man can fly to Jupiter." That may be a perfectly true statement in terms of describing the current situation - but says nothing about what men might accomplish as they mature in science.

I don't think you haven't proven anything - you haven't even proven it was Christ who spoke to Moses on Mt Sinai. At most you've proved that the Rock that spewed forth Living Water as they traveled in the desert was Christ. But you haven't established that all the apparitions were Christ, some of them could have been God the Father for all we know, including the one on Mt Sinai. If anyone's conjecturing here, it's clearly you.

 

[JohnRabbit]

But that's a silly way of 'refuting' my view.

Suppose I said, "No man can fly to Jupiter." That may be a perfectly true statement in terms of describing the current situation - but says nothing about what men might accomplish as they mature in science.

I don't think you haven't proven anything - you haven't even proven it was Christ who spoke to Moses on Mt Sinai. At most you've proved that the Rock that spewed forth Living Water as they traveled in the desert was Christ. But you haven't established that all the apparitions were Christ, some of them could have been God the Father for all we know, including the one on Mt Sinai. If anyone's conjecturing here, it's clearly you.

THIS MATURATION PROCESS, THE LIKE OF WHAT YOU SPEAK, IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE AT ALL.

IT IS PURE CONJECTURE!

SO THIS NOTION ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR HEAD!

THEREFORE, THE STATEMENT THAT I QUOTED BY YOU IS A DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE SCRIPTURE.

THE PROOF I GAVE IS SIMPLY FACTS THAT CANNOT BE DISPUTED!


QUIT DRINKING THE "KOOL-AID"!

 

[YosemiteSam]

THIS MATURATION PROCESS, THE LIKE OF WHAT YOU SPEAK, IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE AT ALL.

IT IS PURE CONJECTURE!

SO THIS NOTION ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR HEAD!

THEREFORE, THE STATEMENT THAT I QUOTED BY YOU IS A DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE SCRIPTURE.

THE PROOF I GAVE IS SIMPLY FACTS THAT CANNOT BE DISPUTED!


QUIT DRINKING THE "KOOL-AID"!

What flavors?

 

[YosemiteSam]

So I guess its confirmed... It was the one who became Jesus who Moses spoke with.

 

[JAL]

I'm editing this post

 

[JAL]

THIS MATURATION PROCESS, THE LIKE OF WHAT YOU SPEAK, IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE AT ALL.

IT IS PURE CONJECTURE!

SO THIS NOTION ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR HEAD!

THEREFORE, THE STATEMENT THAT I QUOTED BY YOU IS A DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE SCRIPTURE.

THE PROOF I GAVE IS SIMPLY FACTS THAT CANNOT BE DISPUTED!


QUIT DRINKING THE "KOOL-AID"!

Seriously? I suppose you're referring to verses like these as your 'proof' that no one has seen the Father:

John 1:18(NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Who declared Whom?)

1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time.


John 6:46(NKJV)
46Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

This is your 'absolute proof'? Really? "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.”

You’re misunderstanding the basic hermeneutical principle of limited force. A statement that appears on the surface to be an absolute, categorical assessment might in fact have a limited application/context. A simple everyday example is, “Everyone’s here, let’s get the party started.” Everyone? In the whole world? For a more pertinent example, “No one may see my face and live.” You said it was Christ’s face. No one has seen Christ’s face? No one saw God – Father or Son – face to face? Baloney. They saw God’s face in a limited-force sense (they saw a shaded view of it). “His face was like the sun in all its brilliance.”
If we don’t honor the principle of limited force, we run into insurmountable problems, consider for example one of the verse cited, “No one has seen God at any time.” Do you take this verse at full force? No one saw God, not even Christ, at any time? Of course not. You qualify it as, “No one has seen God the Father at any time.”

Every student of the Bible, if he is going to make sense of it, has to limit the force of some statements. The only difference between you and me, in the current debate, is how much to limit the force of the verses in question. In your limitation, no one has seen the Father in any sense. In my limitation, no one has seen the Father in the fullness of His glory/Light, He thus dwells in Light unapproachable (the fullness of it would kill us).
I repeat. You’ve proved nothing. You’ve merely expressed one biased interpretation of how to apply the limited force.


And I'm just getting started. I can actually prove to you that all Christians have seen the Father, although I'm not sure I care to spend the time.

 

[YosemiteSam]

[FONT=&quot]“Every student of the Bible, if he is going to make sense of it, has to limit the force of some statements. The only difference between you and me, in the current debate, is how much to limit the force of the verses in question.”[/FONT]

Jal

With regards your reply to JohnRabbits post raises several uncertainties.

Foremost and with hesitation one must first address your comment, “Every student of the Bible, if he is going to make sense of it, has to limit the force of some statements. The only difference between you and me, in the current debate, is how much to limit the force of the verses in question.” What are these restrictions you speak of and by what authority is it given?

Do we not remember what our Lord said in Luke 4.4 “It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.”? Now if we believe the written word to have been given by God to all people, would we not be more approved to trust “every word” carries with it the same weight and authority? Might we also be reminded that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

So by what directive, principle or authority do you suggest the student of the bible use when “limiting the force” of scripture? Are we not told that “Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”? Do I, as a man, set my own doctrine? Do I, as a man, found my own instruction in righteousness? Maybe I can find it in myself to rebuke that which I am? Perhaps I might find in myself, goodness? Or did Christ already instruct us that there is none good, except one God?

Concerning the “limitation of force” to the scriptures would simply be to acquiesce to that which is given rather than to stretch to our imaginations what is not present. Then and only then would we find a truth in that the scriptures are profitable to righteousness.

Now if one so choose to use this "limitation of force" you so named, it would result in the signature line of your post "These are just my opinions, not "the facts" as fact.

I will address your first and second paragraph post 67 when I return.

Thank you

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So I guess its confirmed... It was the one who became Jesus who Moses spoke with.

He became or was?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
ABRAHAM VS THE RICH MAN

John 8:58
Jesus said to them "amen amen I-am-saying to ye,
before Abraham to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), I AM

Matthew 3:9
"And no ye should be thinking to say in yeselves 'a father we are having, the Abraham'.
For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God, out of these stones, to rouse/egeirai <1453> (5658) children to the Abraham.
[Luke 3:8]

LUKE 16:
30 And he said, 'Nay father Abraham!
but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "





.

 

[brinny]

This verse comes to mind:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." ~Exodus 33:11

 

[YosemiteSam]

He became or was?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
ABRAHAM VS THE RICH MAN

John 8:58
Jesus said to them "amen amen I-am-saying to ye,
before Abraham to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), I AM

Matthew 3:9
"And no ye should be thinking to say in yeselves 'a father we are having, the Abraham'.
For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God, out of these stones, to rouse/egeirai <1453> (5658) children to the Abraham.
[Luke 3:8]

LUKE 16:
30 And he said, 'Nay father Abraham!
but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "





.

 

[listed]

Well, I read your post and the replies to it and would have to agree that you added your own conjecture into the scriptures.

Moses asked to see God in His glory... God answered him why Moses could not. 33.20 20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Why? Because Moses would die!!! So it had nothing to do with maturity or some spirituality with Moses, it had to do with the fact He was a man. That is what the bible gives as the answer. Man cannot see God in His full glory and live.

Your last statement is even more troublesome. And I quote you "Or maybe you're debating whether it was God the Father or God the Son. (That disctinction isn't generally important to me ..."

Actually it is important in understanding the scriptures. And it is very apparent from the scriptures to whom Moses spoke: the Lord,the Word, "the logos",the spokesperson for God and the one who became Christ...jn 1 1-3 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Furthermore Phil 2.6-8. Its worth posting here:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The very God who emptied himself of the glory He had that he may pay for the penalty of our sin. That the penalty of OUR sins could be paid! Jn 1.29 Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

In light of Gen 1.26 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them..

Now which part of "God", "US" , "OUR" or "OWN" do you suppose Moses spoke? 1 Cor 10.4
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Is this not clear? Do not the scriptures interpret themselves? Maybe you might ask, how is it that God emptied Himself of Glory? We find that Jesus prayed in jn 17.5 for the return of the Glory He once held.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Who declared who? Who revealed who? jn 17.24-26 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Again Matt 11.27 27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Scripture shows:
Christ came to reveal the Father.
It was Christ who was with the Father before the foundation of the world. It was Christ who followed Israel through the sea and spoke to them from Mt Sinai.
It was Christ, the other half of the "US", "OUR" that emptied himself of the glory which he held before the foundations of the worldto pay the penalty for you and I. Thank you!

Will you please identify My Father's commandments?

 

[listed]

this thread was started because there are some in this forum that don't believe that it was Jesus Who talked to moses and has nothing to do with more or less glory. however, this fact does have implications on other points of doctrine.



as far as moses' maturity, what you have written about it is conjecture, even though you cite the verses from numbers.


here's proof of your conjecture!

you said:

"Had Moses lived just a little longer, and kept maturing spiritually, perhaps he soon would have been able to withstand God's face."

so taking what you said, one can take scripture and prove you wrong!

Exodus 33:20(NKJV)
20But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

see?

God says that no man can see His face and live!

so your conjecture on moses' maturity would simply contradict the verse!


i'm not trying to down or belittle you. i'm actually trying to be a help!

we simply cannot add, take away from or embellish the scripture as we are admonished not to do so - per 2pet 1:20.

No this thread is started because many refuse to participate in a similar thread basically forced closed by bad behavior. The truth can not be revealed or discussed here.

 

[listed]

Point is Cribstyl your post was just defeated. Here we see he has a waist, feet, face...etc... Evidently God does have definition which man can see when allowed...

Gen 2 "Let US make man after OUR image and after OUR likeness"

Get the point?

And you offer this as proof. Now that's good entertainment. If it were true why would Jesus take up the form of a man since He already had it?

 

[listed]

You hear that? NOthing! Excellent scripture driven post!

You did not read the opening statement.

 

[listed]

Sir, I am going to challenge you on that.... Ughhhh, okay you're right it was Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Great challenge.

Do you know the word Christ is a title and not a name?

 

[Angelquill]

Has anyone here ever read about Melchisedek? Just wondering...since Hebrews speaks of Him as being eternal...as in without beginning and without end...

 

[brinny]

I have, and find Him most interesting......there's depths there that i find hard to comprehend...however, how He is described is of GREAT significance and of the eternal kind....

Who could possibly be without beginning or end?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Has anyone here ever read about Melchisedek? Just wondering...since Hebrews speaks of Him as being eternal...as in without beginning and without end...

I never hear the Jews mention Him much.....fascinating fellow!


Hebrews 7:
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, and being made like to the Son of God, doth remain a priest continually.
4 And see how great this one [is], to whom also a tenth, Abraham the patriarch, did give out of the best of the spoils,

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm
MELCHIZEDEK part 1 of 7

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated,

"Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.
The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,

In the Genesis story Melchizedek is a strange and mysterious figure. He flashes across the scene like a meteor.
There is no heralding of his appearance, nor any mention of its results. He arrives out of the blue; there is no account of his family; there is nothing about his birth, his descent, his life, his work, or his death. He simply arrives.




.

 

[JohnRabbit]

No this thread is started because many refuse to participate in a similar thread basically forced closed by bad behavior. The truth can not be revealed or discussed here.

thanks for your input?