Who Was Moses Talking To??

[Cribstyl]

This thread is about a who gave Moses the law.....angels or God.

 

[lost999]

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. That seems pretty final, doesn't it? No man hath seen God at any time. Oh, but wait! Exo_33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. Oh, well...maybe Moses just thought he was speaking face to face with God. Maybe it was just a vision, or something... Exo_34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. Exo_34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. Hmmm....and then, again, evidently, something must have happened. So, could John have been wrong? Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Ahhh, wait...there is the clue. the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. So, the only possibility is that Moses had to have been speaking to the Second Person of the Trinity...for Jesus is also God... It was God Who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses...God With Us, or Immanuel. We know Him as Jesus Christ...

Sounds like an argument from Marcion's brand of theology.

Interesting thread none the least.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

​

I have a question. Why is this topic thread on the Law/Sabbath board instead of GT, where it would probably be viewed by a lot more members? Just curious

​

You have a good point. Could you get it moved?

I can bring it up to Staff. I wish it was on the GT.

.

 

[Angelquill]

Sorry. I made the thread. I guess I posted in the wrong place.
Thank you guys for clearing that up for me...

 

[brinny]

It's not a biggie.....maybe a mod can determine where it fits? In the meantime, thank you for starting the thread...it's intriguing and edifying. I never thought much about all the details of Moses and God before.....how deee-light-full to explore it

 

[Tallguy88]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from Sabbath and Law to General Theology.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God is a spirit. He has no physical definition that man can see.
What Moses and the people's eyes saw was a ball of fire, which is an angel of the Lord.
.

Indeed. God is a spirit.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5690463
The Woman at the Well

John 4:
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman! believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
24 A Spirit the GOD, and the ones-worshipping Him in spirit and truth is binding to be worshipping.'


The Police - Spirits In The Material World - YouTube



.

 

[Angelquill]

Sounds like an argument from Marcion's brand of theology.

Interesting thread none the least.

Marcion? I've heard that name before, but I don't know who he is, or anything about his "brand of theology".

Did he teach that Jesus was the "angel of the lord" and had made many appearances among men before His birth in Bethlehem?

 

[lost999]

Marcion? I've heard that name before, but I don't know who he is, or anything about his "brand of theology".

Did he teach that Jesus was the "angel of the lord" and had made many appearances among men before His birth in Bethlehem?

Marcion of Sinope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marcion believed that the God of the Hebrew bible (Yahweh) was different from Jesus. He basically believed there to be two separate god's; one being wrathful and angry, the other to be kind and loving.

He put together his own separate canon, changing some of the scriptures referencing to the Old Testament, to align it more with the New Testament.

When I read your original post, you inferred that Jesus is the One who gave Moses the ten commandments. This, to me, seemed liked something Marcion would have inferred, due to his theological views.

But, to answer your question, no he did not believe Jesus to be an angel. He believed Jesus to be the highest God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Marcion of Sinope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marcion believed that the God of the Hebrew bible (Yahweh) was different from Jesus. He basically believed there to be two separate god's; one being wrathful and angry, the other to be kind and loving.

He put together his own separate canon, changing some of the scriptures referencing to the Old Testament, to align it more with the New Testament.

When I read your original post, you inferred that Jesus is the One who gave Moses the ten commandments. This, to me, seemed liked something Marcion would have inferred, due to his theological views.

But, to answer your question, no he did not believe Jesus to be an angel. He believed Jesus to be the highest God.

That is interesting.
Christ is mentioned by Paul as following the Hebrews.....

Exo 17:6
“Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.”
And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

1Co 10:4
and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.



.

 

[JohnRabbit]

maybe this will help (a repost of mine):

when the bible refers to the "Angel of the Lord", often, it is referring to the One we know as the Christ.

moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!

John 1:1(NKJV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

word, strongs G3056
G3056

λόγος

logos

log'-os

From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ):—account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

He that speaks came to this world in the flesh jn 1:14!

now, look at this:

Hebrews 2:7-9(NKJV)
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

moses didn't see the face of God in glory! (ex 33:20-23), you have to remember that when He appeared in His Glory, He often hid Himself in a thick black cloud!

notice this:

Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

now, compare to:

John 1:18(NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Who declared Whom?)

John 6:46(NKJV)
46Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.



so, who did moses and the others see? i think it's safe to say it wasn't the Father!


moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!


exodus says they saw God and 1jn says no one has seen God. there can be no contradiction.

so, the One we know as Jesus is the answer!

i definitely haven't found any scripture that suggests it was God's Holy Spirit.

now here's more scripture for proof!

Exodus 14:19-20,24(NKJV)
19And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. 20So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night... 24Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians.

the phrase "Angel of God" is referring to God and not some angel. the Angel of God in this instance is the one we know as the Christ.


now check this out!

Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

God talked to moses from the cloud. so, we know who's in the cloud. from the verses that john wrote, i.e. jn 1:1,18, we know this could not be God the Father.

Exodus 33:9-10(NKJV)
9And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.
10All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.

Numbers 14:14(NKJV)
14and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.

can't get much clearer on Who's going before the COI in a pillar of cloud!


and now the "coup de gras"!

1 Corinthians 10:1-4(NKJV)
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3all ate the same spiritual food,
4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.


the bible says it was Christ Who spoke to moses!

"and that Rock was Christ"

 

[listed]

maybe this will help (a repost of mine):

when the bible refers to the "Angel of the Lord", often, it is referring to the One we know as the Christ.

moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!

John 1:1(NKJV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

word, strongs G3056
G3056

λόγος

logos

log'-os

From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ):—account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

He that speaks came to this world in the flesh jn 1:14!

now, look at this:

Hebrews 2:7-9(NKJV)
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

moses didn't see the face of God in glory! (ex 33:20-23), you have to remember that when He appeared in His Glory, He often hid Himself in a thick black cloud!

notice this:

Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

now, compare to:

John 1:18(NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Who declared Whom?)

John 6:46(NKJV)
46Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.



so, who did moses and the others see? i think it's safe to say it wasn't the Father!


moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!


exodus says they saw God and 1jn says no one has seen God. there can be no contradiction.

so, the One we know as Jesus is the answer!

i definitely haven't found any scripture that suggests it was God's Holy Spirit.

now here's more scripture for proof!

Exodus 14:19-20,24(NKJV)
19And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. 20So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night... 24Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians.

the phrase "Angel of God" is referring to God and not some angel. the Angel of God in this instance is the one we know as the Christ.


now check this out!

Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

God talked to moses from the cloud. so, we know who's in the cloud. from the verses that john wrote, i.e. jn 1:1,18, we know this could not be God the Father.

Exodus 33:9-10(NKJV)
9And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.
10All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.

Numbers 14:14(NKJV)
14and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.

can't get much clearer on Who's going before the COI in a pillar of cloud!


and now the "coup de gras"!

1 Corinthians 10:1-4(NKJV)
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3all ate the same spiritual food,
4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.


the bible says it was Christ Who spoke to moses!

"and that Rock was Christ"

What indicates Moses talked with a different entity in Ex 33 than the one on Mt Sinai?

 

[Angelquill]

What indicates Moses talked with a different entity in Ex 33 than the one on Mt Sinai?

Nothing at all.
Unless you are suggesting that there is more than one God?

 

[JohnRabbit]

What indicates Moses talked with a different entity in Ex 33 than the one on Mt Sinai?

i see no indication.

if you do, how?

 

[ViaCrucis]

A theophany--a manifestation of God--isn't the same thing as seeing God in His ineffable, eternal, unknowable, incomprehensible Essence.

The text speaks of Moses seeing the "backside" of God. Whatever else that might mean, it very obviously means that Moses did not see God in the full unmediated terrifying radiance of His glory and essence. Recall what God says in Exodus, "No man may see Me and live".

So did Moses see God? Moses certainly had a profound encounter with God at Sinai, described as God revealing His backside to Moses, and which in turn made Moses' face shine so unbelievably bright that a veil had to cover his face.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[listed]

Nothing at all.
Unless you are suggesting that there is more than one God?

Well lets see. We have Moses saying he saw God in what chapter 24 and Moses requesting to see God in chapter 33 where God says no. Hmmm! Did God speak the truth or is Moses stretching things a bit? Thousands have seen Jesus face to face and could identify Him. Something just does not fit.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by JohnRabbit

maybe this will help (a repost of mine):

when the bible refers to the "Angel of the Lord", often, it is referring to the One we know as the Christ.

moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!

​

What indicates Moses talked with a different entity in Ex 33 than the one on Mt Sinai?

First, have we establised that Jesus was the one talking to Moses on Mt Sinai?

If Jesus is God, one would have to say yes, correct?



Acts 7:
30 And of being filled years, forty, was seen to him in the wilderness of the mount Sinai a messenger of Lord, in a flame of fire of a bush,
38 "This is the one-becoming in the Assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger the one speaking to him in the Mount Sinai,
and with our fathers who receives oracles/words, living, to give to us.

1Co 10:4
and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was the Christ.

.

 

[Noxot]

if we face God then we are opposing him, not following him. that is why Jesus said "get behind me satan" to peter when he was acting as Jesus adversary. if we face God we die for we are in opposition to him. that is why moses, who follows God, saw Gods back.

but there is a depth to spiritual knowledge that can not be cut into stone without the truth being veiled.... even though the truth shines bright, the stony heart of humanity is not able to bare the vision. therefore humanity needs a new heart of wax and it must always melt before God in love. there are a multitude of waters coming from God in the divine contemplation of him. when we see Gods face we die and in dying we live for we must die to our old man and our new man must be alive in Christ.

if we are all seeing the face or back of God then we are not seeing the back or face of people. when paul told us to follow him, it was because God himself was living in him. paul did not want us to become sectarians and be "of paul" or "of apollos". the light in paul was the light of Christ just as the light of apollos was the light of Christ. in Christ there is no division but in the world we shall have trouble. in Christ we have the peace that the world can not receive for the flesh can not receive the things of the spirit. but when we are of the world we do not know God for the world is darkness and the darkness does not comprehend/grasp the light.

"flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

evil dies when it sees God but Gods child does not die for God and his child are family. this is why our soul must be set free from the corruptible and no longer be a drunken harlot... that it may be a virgin and be with the incorruptible treasures in the heavens.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Why did Moses ask to see God in Ex 33?

He asked God to show him His ways that he (Moses) might know God.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Well lets see. We have Moses saying he saw God in what chapter 24 and Moses requesting to see God in chapter 33 where God says no. Hmmm! Did God speak the truth or is Moses stretching things a bit? Thousands have seen Jesus face to face and could identify Him. Something just does not fit.

this is a case of being simply disingenuous or ignorant!

i have provided the proof of Who moses talked to and you try to introduce a "seeming" contradiction!

where God says "no" is the fact that moses asked to see Him in His Glory (ex 33:18)and God explains why He couldn't allow that.

the fact is that verse 11 of ex 33 says "So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend", which God is obviously in a state of manifestation that would be conducive to facilitate communication on a personal level. this verse would be consistent with the account given in ex 24:10! (a simple comparison of ex:33:11,18,20,23 should have cleared up any ambiguity on your part! )



so, this "seeming" contradiction you're trying to inject, in no way disputes the fact that it is not the Father to which moses is speaking.