Who then can be saved?

[Clare73]

This sounds like maybe a Reformed Baptist point of view? Just trying to understand, not judging.

Faith is a gift looks like a Biblical view to me (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3).

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Faith is a gift looks like a Biblical view to me (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3).

It was a question I had about his theology based on his application of Ephesians 2:8. But his posts that I read later confirmed my suspicion, so I dropped my question.

But let me just say that a person's ability to hear and believe God's testimony that he is a sinner in need of a Savior and that Jesus stands ready to rescue him is not a gift that is given to some and witheld from others. This is the reformed view of what the Bible says, of course, but it is not the prevalent view among Christians.

 

[Clare73]

It was a question I had about his theology based on his application of Ephesians 2:8. But his posts that I read later confirmed my suspicion, so I dropped my question.

But let me just say that a person's ability to hear and believe God's testimony that he is a sinner in need of a Savior and that Jesus stands ready to rescue him is not a gift that is given to some and witheld from others. This is the reformed view of what the Bible says, of course, but it is not the prevalent view among Christians.

Jn 3:3-5 pretty much disagrees with that, Jn 3:6-8 presenting the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind, in the re-birth.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Jn 3:3-5 pretty much disagrees with that, Jn 3:6-8 presenting the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind, in the re-birth.

The wind blowing where it wishes means that the reformed view of faith being a gift given to some and witheld from others is correct? Faith doesn't save people. God saves people from His wrath. And it pleases Him to 'save those who believe" (1 Cor 1:21). He is Sovereign. That was His decision, and that settles it.

 

[Clare73]

The wind blowing where it wishes means that the reformed view of faith being a gift given to some and witheld from others is correct?
Faith doesn't save people.

God saves people, through his gift (Php 1:29, 2 Peter 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3) of faith (Eph 2:8-9).
The gift of faith is the gift of salvation. . .no gift of faith, no gift of salvation.

God saves people from His wrath. And it pleases Him to 'save those who believe" (1 Cor 1:21). He is Sovereign. That was His decision, and that settles it.

What is your explanation of Jn 3:6-8 in light of and connection to Jn 3:3-5 regarding the Holy Spirit?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

God saves people, through his gift (Php 1:29, 2 Peter 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3) of faith (Eph 2:8-9).
The gift of faith is the gift of salvation. . .no gift of faith, no gift of salvation.

The problem is that God has chosen to "save those who believe" (1 Cor 1:21). Believing comes first, then salvation. That they are not the same event and that faith comes first is obvious in other verses like Ephesians 2:8 which says "you have been saved through faith" and Romans 10:13-14 which says, "For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.' How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?" Believing preceeds salvation. I know this does not conform to reformed theology.

What is your explanation of Jn 3:6-8 in light of and connection to Jn 3:3-5 regarding the Holy Spirit?

God gives the right to become one of His children to everyone who receives Jesus and believes in His name (Jn 1:12). These are they who are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn 1:13). Again, God decides who He saves. And He has decided to save those who believe.

 

[Clare73]

The problem is that God has chosen to "save those who believe" (1 Cor 1:21). Believing comes first, then salvation.

Correct. . .and that faith is a gift (Php 1:29, 2 Peter 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3).

That they are not the same event and that faith comes first is obvious in other verses like Ephesians 2:8 which says "you have been saved through faith" and Romans 10:13-14 which says, "For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.' How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?" Believing preceeds salvation. I know this does not conform to reformed theology.

God gives the right to become one of His children to everyone who receives Jesus and believes in His name (Jn 1:12). These are they who are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn 1:13). Again, God decides who He saves. And He has decided to save those who believe.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Correct. . .and that faith is a gift (Php 1:29, 2 Peter 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3).

And everyone has that gift (Romans 10:8).

 

[Clare73]

And everyone has that gift (Romans 10:8).

Paul is speaking to Christians in Romans.

 

[Dan1988]

Resistance is throughout the bible. God beckons and calls and appeals to us. We can be poor soil where the word first takes root and grows but is later left to wither and die. We are warned not to return to the flesh, as some were doing, that we must make effort to be holy in order to see God, that we must persevere. We are told what happens to the wicked and lazy servant who buries his gifts.

God beckons, with a choice:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Rev 3:20-21

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its collapse!” Matt 7:24-27

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” Matt 11:28

“We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Cor 5:20-21

And He warns:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” John 15:5-6

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.” Heb 6:4-8

“If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

Christianity rejects legalism but it also rejects lawlessness, sin, unrighteousness as inconsistent with being a child of God. When you can reconcile those truths, you’ll better understand the gospel. Gal 5, for instance, is a commentary on this very thing: the law will not justify you while sin will still condemn you. So the new covenant is not some carte blanche reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous as long as he believes, but is actually the authentic means to achieving that very righteousness, with God, now grafted into the Vine by faith and fed by Him, inspired to do His will instead of being on my own and making effort to prove my “righteousness” by works of the law. IOW, I have no righteousness/justice on my own; God, alone, justifies or makes just the ungodly. My real sin to begin with is my separation/alienation from Him! He ‘puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts’-as I turn to Him, and as long as I remain in Him, as long as I continue to walk by the Spirit. It’s all grace, all from God, but grace that I must respond to:

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Gal 6:7-8

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Rom 8:12-14

Faith, hope, and love are all gifts of grace, and yet they’re gifts that we must accept, embrace, and express as we pick up our cross and follow daily.


“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

So you don't believe the "saved by grace gospel", which Jesus preached. You believe on is saved by "works + grace". But this version of the gospel is not found anywhere in the Bible.

You are in good company, the vast majority of Christian Denominations teach this same "grace + works" gospel. It's very popular, because the "natural man" loves to have his ears tickled and he loves to boast about the wise choice he made, in choosing to spend eternity in paradise, while most people chose to spend eternity in hell fire.

The God + man, team effort salvation plan, robs God of His glory in salvation and it makes a mockery of the work Jesus did on the cross to save Gods people. It means Jesus failed to finish the work of salvation and He still depends on sinners to finish what He failed to do.

You claim that God requires a man to be willing to accept Him, before He can save him. But the Bible confirms that no man is willing, until God makes them willing. You claim that it's up to the spiritually dead sinner, to reject his sin nature and conjure up a new spiritual nature within himself and accept God offer of salvation.

It sounds like you haven't taken "original sin", into account when applying the above verses to support the "joint effort" version of the gospel. I'm sure you believe that the Bible teaches that there are only two kinds of people in the world, there are "believers" and "unbelievers". So when we read the above verses, we need to remember who they are directed at.
God never offered salvation to anyone, He either saves you or He leaves you dead in your sin. There is nothing in the Bible to support this idea that Jesus was like a door to door salesman offering eternal paradise for free, and most slamming the door in His face. To reduce Jesus down to a failed salesman, is highly disrespectful. That's why I reject the man + God version of the gospel.

I have never come across a single verse in the Bible to support your version of the gospel.

 

[fhansen]

So you don't believe the "saved by grace gospel", which Jesus preached. You believe on is saved by "works + grace". But this version of the gospel is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Sure it is. Works/good fruit/overcoming sin flow from grace for believers- and those works are optional nonetheless. They flow from the love pored into our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5), to put it another way. And this makes perfect sins of such verses, again, as:

"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. " Gal 6:7-8

So that's what it means to 'work out your salvation', or 'make you calling and election sure'.

 

[Dan1988]

This sounds like maybe a Reformed Baptist point of view? Just trying to understand, not judging.

It actually sounds like a Biblical view, and if you believe that the Bible is Gods Word, then you also believe it's actually Gods point of view as well.

I get it, natural man can't accept Gods point of view as it goes against human nature. That's why God must regenerate a man and change his nature before the man can receive spiritual things. Until then, they are foolishness to him.

Unregenerate people approach the Bible, with preconceived ideas and expectations of what it must be saying. No natural man can receive the truth, while his sin nature dominates him.

 

[fhansen]

You are in good company, the vast majority of Christian Denominations teach this same "grace + works" gospel. It's very popular, because the "natural man" loves to have his ears tickled and he loves to boast about the wise choice he made, in choosing to spend eternity in paradise, while most people chose to spend eternity in hell fire.

Nonsense. the folks who believe as I do are of the humbler variety, because they don't have your certainty about salvation. It's the natural man who wants to remain as he was, unchanged, unbothered by any obligation, even allowed to remain in his sins, perhaps, depending on his version of Sola Fide. It's like the guy in the Parable of the Talents who buried his talents, refusing to invest them, and was booted from the kingdom for his wicked and laziness.

 

[fhansen]

I have never come across a single verse in the Bible to support your version of the gospel.

Better get to readin' then, son. For yourself, tho, no longer thru the lens of those who've influenced you.

 

[Dan1988]

This looks more like judgementalism than reformed theology.

Yes the Lord commands His people to judge everyone by their fruits. But lets not confuse mans authority to judge with Gods.
Mans authority to judge everyone, is for the purpose of exposing false Christians. It's not the judgement that condemns one to n eternity in the lake of fire, that's what Jesus does.

Gods people must judge everyone, so we don't trust or believe what false Christians have to say. The worst thing you can do is to receive a sinner into your house or Church, as they have nothing good to offer. For what fellowship can Gods people have with the unbelievers and false professors.

God commands His people to be as meek as doves and as wise as serpents.

 

[Lost Witness]

Without faith in God..
There can be no trust and a relationship without trust cannot work.

 

[Dan1988]

Sure it is. Works/good fruit/overcoming sin flow from grace for believers- and those works are optional nonetheless. They flow from the love pored into our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5), to put it another way. And this makes perfect sins of such verses, again, as:

"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. " Gal 6:7-8

So that's what it means to 'work out your salvation', or 'make you calling and election sure'.

That's all well and good, but it still doesn't support the saved by works gospel at all. Nowhere do any of the above say, you must do these things in order to be saved. You have added that requirement yourself, and by doing that, you have rejected the "saved by grace" gospel and created the "saved by works" version of the gospel.

Jesus said, "without Me, you can do nothing" but you say, no Jesus, it's not you, it's actually us. You can't save me without my help and my full approval of everything you're trying to do.

I don't do good works to be saved, I do them because I'm saved, see how that works. Your gospel message is completely different from the one found in the Bible.

 

[Dan1988]

Nonsense. the folks who believe as I do are of the humbler variety, because they don't have your certainty about salvation. It's the natural man who wants to remain as he was, unchanged, unbothered by any obligation, even allowed to remain in his sins, perhaps, depending on his version of Sola Fide. It's like the guy in the Parable of the Talents who buried his talents, refusing to invest them, and was booted from the kingdom for his wicked and laziness.

Jesus never said, "if you believe in Me, you might be saved". You will not find a single verse in the Bible to support this idea that salvation is a maybe, depending on how good you are.

I am already saved and I have already inherited eternal life in paradise. Remember the thief, who repented on the cross. Well Jesus told Him that he would be with Him, in paradise that very day. Jesus didn't burden him with any rules to follow or works to perform, just as He doesn't do to this day. He never changes.

God knows that saved people, continue to sin everyday for the rest of our lives. This is why He sent His Son to pay for every, past present and future sin of His elect.

 

[Dan1988]

Better get to readin' then, son. For yourself, tho, no longer thru the lens of those who've influenced you.

I have read the Bible from cover to cover, and I have read all the different interpretations and found that there's only one truth and His name is Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

I have read the Bible from cover to cover, and I have read all the different interpretations and found that there's only one truth and His name is Jesus.

Good, and I’ve read it cover to cover many times. And I know no Christian who doesn’t think the truth is Jesus so that’s a bit of a vague statement. Now, exactly what truths He’s telling us to adhere to is a different story and often a source of division.