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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

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LittleLambofJesus

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The Christian church only really obtained its' own identity after Titus destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem in 71 A.D. After that it became more than an offshoot of Judaism.
Hi. That may be true, but that event also destroyed many of the "enemies" of the Cross and of the Christian converts from the Law and OC Judaism.

Who were the ones always giving up Jews convernting to Christ. Remember Paul was also doing that before he "converted" :wave:

Acts 23:14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema/anaqemati <331> we anathemtize/aneqematisamen <332> (5656) ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing the Paul.
Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still. And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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AngelDove7

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I was talking specifically about being born again...
I put equal weight into them as I do ecf's and my pastor...Always double checking how what they are saying to scripture, maybe thats why I can appreciate origen in his constant attaching of scripture to nearly everything he spoke of.
But the scriptures you have are incomplete compared to the early Church. The Protestant movement removed half of the books of the Bible. That's what I don't understand.... why people say things like this, and do not realize they have only partial knowledge of what really was. :confused: It takes more than studying the early Church fathers, it also takes studying early Church history.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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But the scriptures you have are incomplete compared to the early Church. The Protestant movement removed half of the books of the Bible. That's what I don't understand.... why people say things like this, and do not realize they have only partial knowledge of what really was. :confused: It takes more than studying the early Church fathers, it also takes studying early Church history.
Really? Half the books? Not only an exaggeration, but a gross one.
 
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Krelian

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As to the original question, I think the reason for caring what the Patristics say is multi-faceted.

Ex. 1

They had access to manuscripts that today's scholars would [almost :p] kill to have.

Ex. 2

Being as some of them wrote within a generation of people who might have met apostles as children or whose grandad was healed by Jesus, the miraculous events of the Bible were quite personal and realistic to them.

Thomas a Kempis well said that Christians should read books on Christ by well-known and respectable Christians and with the same respect as we have for them read small but devout books by small, unknown Christian authors.
He wasn't concened with 'if' we should read other Christians' works, but 'how.'

I tend to agree with that.
There is something to learning what other Chrsitians have to say about this verse or that, in seeing how a certain verse might have effected someone else.
"Iron sharpeneth iron," you know?

Certainly then, there is a value in reading Origen's take on the Canticles, or in brushing up on the early years of the Church as reported by Eusebius.
St. Augustine had a million good thing to say, and so did Ignatius in his letters on the way to his martyrdom.
The Shepherd of Hermas is an excellent piece of early Christian literature too.

It's an equally worthy cause to study the early church fathers as it is to go to church, or to read Mere Christianity, or the Imitation of Christ, or anything by Thomas Aquinas.
There is profit in it in being able to see verses from multiple vantage points and in seeing how God works differently through his word for different hearts.

Anyway, maybe I'm confusing all pre-Constantine Christian authors with Patristics.
I'm not sure where the cut off point is, so please forgive me :)
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=simonthezealot; Their theology was wrong in many areas, there were many different interpretations of the same scriptures and in many cases they had next to NO access to bounce their ideas off of other great theological minds...So what gives? why the heavy leanings for understanding?
It isn't for understanding, it is for justification of error.

Essentially the scriptures they used and the ones we use have remained unchanged, less some poor translations. It does not seem plausible to hang ones salvation on an early 3rds or 4th century interpretation of the same scripture we have NOW.
Unless you need extr-scriptural support for a monopoly on truth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I guess we should follow your interpretation of scripture then.

Are you infallible?
In my humble view, no more infallible or fallible than they were.
 
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Trento

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Their theology was wrong in many areas, there were many different interpretations of the same scriptures and in many cases they had next to NO access to bounce their ideas off of other great theological minds...So what gives? why the heavy leanings for understanding? Essentially the scriptures they used and the ones we use have remained unchanged, less some poor translations. It does not seem plausible to hang ones salvation on an early 3rds or 4th century interpretation of the same scripture we have NOW.



An appeal to the "catholic" identity and antiquity of these earliest fathers can still be made, based on those few beliefs they did hold unanimously:

baptismal regeneration


the Lord's Supper, called the "Eucharist", serving as a perfect "sacrifice" (a la Malachi 1:11)


apostolic succession


free will (first questioned by Augustine - though not actualy denied by him)


Mary's perpetual virginity (first denied by Helvidius, after the ante-Nicene period)


the bishop of Rome is Peter's successor, and thus has episcopal primacy of honor.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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the Lord's Supper, called the "Eucharist", serving as a perfect "sacrifice" (a la Malachi 1:11)
All explained in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation. ;)

Malachi 3:1 Behold Me! To send a messenger of Me, and-he-paves/06437 panah way before-Me.
And suddenly He-shall-come to temple/01964 heykal of him, the Lord/0113 'adown, whom you ones seeking, and a messenger of the Covenant, whom you ones delighting. Behold! he comes says YHWH of Hosts.
2 and who enduring the Day of coming of Him, and who the one Standing in the to appear Him. That He as fire of refiner and as soap of launderers.

Revelation 16:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: Be ye falling upon us! and hide Ye us! from face of the One-sitting upon the throne, and from the Wrath/orghV <3709> of the Lamb-kin
17 that came the Day, the great, of the wrath of Him and who is able to Stand.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Mary's perpetual virginity (first denied by Helvidius, after the ante-Nicene period)

And these herecies came back as spawns of Protestanism. Now many Sola Scriptura teachings say Jesus had siblings. Maybe if they read more than websters dictionary and the NKJV. Oh well...

The Early Church Fathers had those that were taught and befriended by Apsotles and they still do not listen. A great example is the Eucharist as the real body and blood of Christ. Justin Martyr spoke very clearly on this topic and even though he did not know the Apostles he was around at the earliest times when Christianity was still strongly united with East and West.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I'm thinking more of the Apostolic fathers, who were taught directly by those who were taught by Christ himself..they may know what they're saying.. :)

Like Polycarp maybe???
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Trento
Mary's perpetual virginity (first denied by Helvidius, after the ante-Nicene period)
..........And these herecies came back as spawns of Protestanism. Now many Sola Scriptura teachings say Jesus had siblings. Maybe if they read more than websters dictionary and the NKJV. Oh well...
I deny the perpetual virginity and the "real presence"....holy thunder... I am a HERETIC!!! FLEE from the Judgement LLOJ!! :D

2 Timothy 4:1 Thru-witnessing then I, before the GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, of the one-being-about/mellontoV <3195> (5723) to be judging/krinein <2919> (5721) living and dead, according as the appearance/manifestation/epifaneian <2015> of Him and the Kingdom of Him

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful-one and True-one and in justice He is judging/krinei <2919> (5719) and is battling.
 
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