• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I deny the perpetual virginity and the "real presence"....holy thunder... I am a HERETIC!!! FLEE from the Judgement LLOJ!! :D

Everyone should be concerned about their salvation in my humble opinion. :)
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Sure, why not?

Some of Polycarp's stuff;

Chapter 4. Various exhortations

But the love of money is the root of all evils. 1 Timothy 6:10 Knowing, therefore, that as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out, 1 Timothy 6:7 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness; Ephesians 6:11 and let us teach, first of all, ourselves to walk in the commandments of the Lord. Next, [teach] your wives [to walk] in the faith given to them, and in love and purity tenderly loving their own husbands in all truth, and loving all [others] equally in all chastity; and to train up their children in the knowledge and fear of God. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually 1 Thessalonians 5:17 for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil; knowing that they are the altar of God, that He clearly perceives all things, and that nothing is hid from Him, neither reasonings, nor reflections, nor any one of the secret things of the heart.

Chapter 5. The duties of deacons, youths, and virgins

Knowing, then, that God is not mocked, Galatians 6:7 we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, 1 Timothy 3:8 or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant Matthew 20:28 of all. If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, we shall also reign together with Him, 2 Timothy 2:12 provided only we believe. In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since every lust wars against the spirit; 1 Peter 2:11 and neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.

Chapter 6. The duties of presbyters and others

And let the presbyters be compassionate and merciful to all, bringing back those that wander, visiting all the sick, and not neglecting the widow, the orphan, or the poor, but always providing for that which is becoming in the sight of God and man; Romans 12:17; 2 Corinthians 8:31 abstaining from all wrath, respect of persons, and unjust judgment; keeping far off from all covetousness, not quickly crediting [an evil report] against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin. If then we entreat the Lord to forgive us, we ought also ourselves to forgive; Matthew 6:12-14 for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and we must all appear at the judgment-seat of Christ, and must every one give an account of himself. Romans 14:10-12; 2 Corinthians 5:10 Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself has commanded us, and as the apostles who preached the Gospel unto us, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us]. Let us be zealous in the pursuit of that which is good, keeping ourselves from causes of offence, from false brethren, and from those who in hypocrisy bear the name of the Lord, and draw away vain men into error.


AND how about Ignatius?

Polycarp also wrote;

Both you and Ignatius wrote to me, that if any one went [from this] into Syria, he should carry your letter with him; which request I will attend to if I find a fitting opportunity, either personally, or through some other acting for me, that your desire may be fulfilled. The Epistles of Ignatius written by him to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle, and by them you may be greatly profited; for they treat of faith and patience, and all things that tend to edification in our Lord. Any more certain information you may have obtained respecting both Ignatius himself, and those that were with him, have the goodness to make known to us.
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
Everyone should be concerned about their salvation in my humble opinion. :)

While this is quite true, I fail to see that not believing in the perpetual virginity of the BVM and not believing in the "real presence" excludes one from salvation. After all, the Pope has affirmed on several occasions that Protestants share in salvation through their trinitarian baptism. The vast majority of these do not believe in the perpetual virginity of the BVM or in the "real presence." So, are they saved or lost?
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
While this is quite true, I fail to see that not believing in the perpetual virginity of the BVM and not believing in the "real presence" excludes one from salvation.

One Father of Christianity said that you cannot have God for the Father with out the Church for the Mother. Cyprian of Carthage.

Without the Catholic Church you cannot have God as your Father.
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
One Father of Christianity said that you cannot have God for the Father with out the Church for the Mother. Cyprian of Carthage.

Without the Catholic Church you cannot have God as your Father.

Begging the question that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist at the time of Cyprian of Carthage, you failed to address the question as to whether or not Protestants who are baptized with a trinitarian baptism are saved or lost when they do not believe in the perpetual virginity of the BVM or in the "real presence." Which are they? As you have stated, salvation is a serious matter.
 
Upvote 0

BreadAlone

Hylian Knight
Aug 11, 2006
8,207
702
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Visit site
✟29,272.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
LLOJ said:
I deny the perpetual virginity and the "real presence"....holy thunder... I am a HERETIC!!! FLEE from the Judgement LLOJ!! :D

Well, while taking the Lord's Supper without recognizing His body is a GRAVE spiritual danger (I Corinthians 11:28-30: A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.) I wouldn't go so far as to say it excludes one from salvation.

The perpetual virginity on the other hand is highly unlikely and contextually innacurate, IMHO, so yeah..it's almost certainly a falsity.

Some of Polycarp's stuff;

Chapter 4. Various exhortations

But the love of money is the root of all evils. 1 Timothy 6:10 Knowing, therefore, that as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out, 1 Timothy 6:7 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness; Ephesians 6:11 and let us teach, first of all, ourselves to walk in the commandments of the Lord. Next, [teach] your wives [to walk] in the faith given to them, and in love and purity tenderly loving their own husbands in all truth, and loving all [others] equally in all chastity; and to train up their children in the knowledge and fear of God. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually 1 Thessalonians 5:17 for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil; knowing that they are the altar of God, that He clearly perceives all things, and that nothing is hid from Him, neither reasonings, nor reflections, nor any one of the secret things of the heart.

Chapter 5. The duties of deacons, youths, and virgins

Knowing, then, that God is not mocked, Galatians 6:7 we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, 1 Timothy 3:8 or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant Matthew 20:28 of all. If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, we shall also reign together with Him, 2 Timothy 2:12 provided only we believe. In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since every lust wars against the spirit; 1 Peter 2:11 and neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.

Chapter 6. The duties of presbyters and others

And let the presbyters be compassionate and merciful to all, bringing back those that wander, visiting all the sick, and not neglecting the widow, the orphan, or the poor, but always providing for that which is becoming in the sight of God and man; Romans 12:17; 2 Corinthians 8:31 abstaining from all wrath, respect of persons, and unjust judgment; keeping far off from all covetousness, not quickly crediting [an evil report] against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin. If then we entreat the Lord to forgive us, we ought also ourselves to forgive; Matthew 6:12-14 for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and we must all appear at the judgment-seat of Christ, and must every one give an account of himself. Romans 14:10-12; 2 Corinthians 5:10 Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself has commanded us, and as the apostles who preached the Gospel unto us, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us]. Let us be zealous in the pursuit of that which is good, keeping ourselves from causes of offence, from false brethren, and from those who in hypocrisy bear the name of the Lord, and draw away vain men into error.


AND how about Ignatius?

Polycarp also wrote;

Both you and Ignatius wrote to me, that if any one went [from this] into Syria, he should carry your letter with him; which request I will attend to if I find a fitting opportunity, either personally, or through some other acting for me, that your desire may be fulfilled. The Epistles of Ignatius written by him to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle, and by them you may be greatly profited; for they treat of faith and patience, and all things that tend to edification in our Lord. Any more certain information you may have obtained respecting both Ignatius himself, and those that were with him, have the goodness to make known to us.

:confused: I still fail to see your problem with him..
 
  • Like
Reactions: IamRedeemed
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.) I wouldn't go so far as to say it excludes one from salvation.


What about when Jesus says that if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood that you do NOT have Life in you?

Just curious.
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
What about when Jesus says that if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood that you do NOT have Life in you?

Just curious.

Given the relatively recent interpretation of the Eucharist using an Aristotelian metephysic it now becomes even more difficult to take a hyper-literal interpretation of John 6:51 and, thus, the exclusive claim by the RCC to being the only entity in which this is available is eroded.

However, my previous question, which I am now raising for the third time remains unanswered. If a Protestant who is baptized using a trinitarian formula but does not believe in the perpetual virginity of the BVM or the"real presence" will he be saved or lost?
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Given the relatively recent interpretation of the Eucharist using an Aristotelian metephysic it now becomes even more difficult to take a hyper-literal interpretation of John 6:51 and, thus, the exclusive claim by the RCC to being the only entity in which this is available is eroded.

However, my previous question, which I am now raising for the third time remains unanswered. If a Protestant who is baptized using a trinitarian formula but does not believe in the perpetual virginity of the BVM or the"real presence" will he be saved or lost?


So all the Church in the first 1500 years of Christianity was wrong due to a recent interpretation by one of the schools of thought? Does that make sense to you?
 
Upvote 0

BreadAlone

Hylian Knight
Aug 11, 2006
8,207
702
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Visit site
✟29,272.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
That is because I do not have a problem with him. :)

You do not see is all. Maybe now you can.

Oh..then maybe we were misunderstanding each other. Polycarp was a pretty cool guy. :thumbsup:

What about when Jesus says that if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood that you do NOT have Life in you?

Just curious.

What about the part that says "He who believes in me will live, even though he dies, and he who lives and believes in me will never die." I don't see "lives, believes, and recieves Holy Communion" in there..

(Again, note, I question someone's reason for not taking Communion and I would cite the grave dangers in Corinthians of not doing so properly.. but I would not deny people salvation..)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: IamRedeemed
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
One Father of Christianity said that you cannot have God for the Father with out the Church for the Mother. Cyprian of Carthage.

Without the Catholic Church you cannot have God as your Father.
That depends on your own denomination's definition of "Church" I can just as easily say you can't cannot have God being in the Catholic Denomination. How's that grab ya :)

Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: Yet one little, she, and I am quaking/07493 ra`ash the heavens and the land, and the sea, and the dry, 7 And I quake/07493 ra`ash all of the nations and they come, desired of all of the nations. And I fill the House, the-this, honour says YHWH of Hosts.

Reve 16:18 And there were voices and thunderings and lightnings; and great quake/seismoV <4578> such as not there was upon Land/ghV <1093>, so mighty a quake/seismoV <4578>, great

Reve 22:3 And every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be longer, and the throne of the God, and of the Lambkin in Her shall be. And the Bond-servents/douloi <1401> of Him shall-be-offering-divine-service/latreusousin <3000> (5692) to Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: joyshirley
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
One Father of Christianity said that you cannot have God for the Father with out the Church for the Mother. Cyprian of Carthage.

Without the Catholic Church you cannot have God as your Father.
Surely you jest :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: joyshirley
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why were those taught by the Apostles Catholic? They are Catholic because the Apostles started the Catholic Church. :)

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Listen so you are not led astray. The world is full of lies and evils that will pullyou away from God and His Church. Listen to Cyprian:

Cyprian of Carthage


"They alone have remained outside [the Church] who, were they within, would have to be ejected.
. . . There [in John 6:68&#8211;69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest, and the flock clinging to their shepherd in the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another" (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]).
 
Upvote 0
C

cbreviews

Guest
It is rather ridiculous that anyone even has to explain why it is important to give a listen to what our brothers-in-Christ have had to say. Of course their writings are not Scripture and not infallible. And yes they did disagree on certain things. But their unanimity far exceeded their disagreements and this gives us a framework of what is and is not essential. The ante-Nicene ECF fought to preserve the faith and put down gnosticism, montanism, docetism, and other heresies while themselves under the threat of persecution. Those of the Nicene period and later fought against those who would deny both Christ's divinity and the union of God and Man in Him. Those elements of the faith we take for granted (the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, etc.) were defined by them and explained to the faithful. But no, go ahead and ignore them - toss them aside. I see it all the time in new churches that form and within a few years they are repeating every heresy and refighting every battle that occurred centuries ago. Lord have mercy upon us!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mick116
Upvote 0
M

MamaZ

Guest
Why were those taught by the Apostles Catholic? They are Catholic because the Apostles started the Catholic Church.
Actually read more into the History of the CC.. The CC was not even heard of until Constatine declared Rome to be Christian.. But then when he did this he would not give up his idols and mingled them. Thus the RCC was born.. There is not much evidence that those that the CC declare are the ecf even had contact with the Apostles..
 
Upvote 0

Mick116

Regular Member
Jul 14, 2004
653
51
44
✟25,175.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Actually read more into the History of the CC.. The CC was not even heard of until Constatine declared Rome to be Christian.. But then when he did this he would not give up his idols and mingled them. Thus the RCC was born.. There is not much evidence that those that the CC declare are the ecf even had contact with the Apostles..
Ignatius called the Church "Catholic" two centuries before Constantine was born. Early in the second century, shortly after the death of the Apostle John, the ministry of bishops, presbyters and deacons had been set firmly in place. The eucharist (i.e. the great thanksgiving) was being offered (i.e. as a sacrifice) by the bishops of the Church. This sounds awfully catholic to me.

Constantine might have legalised Christianity, but as a layman, he had very little input into the actual teachings and practices of the Church, which was the domain of the episcopate. He was certinaly in no position to mingle idolatry with Christian faith. He was not even ordained; heck, the guy wasn't even baptized until his deathbed.

Finally, there is plenty of evidence that some of the ECF's associated with the apostles; most, however, were born later, but received the apostolic traditions passed on to them. We are only speaking of a few generations. If the Holy Spirit was unable to preserve the teachings and the essence of the Church across a few generations, then I don't know why we bother trying to play church today.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.