Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

[MamaZ]

Well just because everyone says they have the Holy Spirit does not make it truth as scripture says.. We shall know the true followers of Christ by their fruit..Not thier mouth tee hee..

 

[Ramon96]

What you are not getting is that what Paul spoke orally to those he Preached to is not binding to us because I was not there to hear first hand what Paul taught orally.. But I can be pretty sure He preached orally what he wrote. There would not be any add ons to what was written or God would have made sure that it was written so that His sheep would know what it was we are to hear and have faith in. Just because men may say that so and so knew so and so and said that Paul said this it cannot be proved that Paul actually said this so I am not bound to that.. I was not there to hear what Paul Preached orally.. No one is today.

"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2).

So thus, I can be sure that what Saint Paul told the Early Christians orally was faithfully guarded by the Holy Apostles Successors and there Successors since I truth the Holy Spirit to guide His Church.

You said, "But I can be pretty sure He preached orally what he wrote.". Yes that is your opinion, not supported by Scriptures.

"What you are not getting is that what Paul spoke orally to those he Preached to is not binding to us because I was not there to hear first hand what Paul taught orally.. But I can be pretty sure He preached orally what he wrote."

Those statements are contradictory. You cannot maintain that what Saint Paul spoke orally was not binding to you because you was not there to hear it first hand and yet at the same believe that everything he taught orally can be found in his Epistles.

Blessings,
Ramon

 

[MamaZ]

If I cannot line up teaching to scripture then how do I know it is truth? For Jesus says that His word is truth.. The only word I have is what is written. I don't know if Tom who says this is tradtion is speaking truth. So I take it to the scriptures to see if what Tom says is actually written in the pages of scripture to see if indeed what He says is truth.

 

[MamaZ]

So thus, I can be sure that what Saint Paul told the Early Christians orally was faithfully guarded by the Holy Apostles Successors and there Successors since I truth the Holy Spirit to guide His Church.

I cannot trust this at all for number one I do not see successors in the scriptures.. It is not a hand me down calling. For all callings and gifts are from God and notanded down from man to man.

 

[MamaZ]

I put my trust in no man.. I only put my trust in Christ and the written scriptures.

 

[Ramon96]

Well just because everyone says they have the Holy Spirit does not make it truth as scripture says.. We shall know the true followers of Christ by their fruit..Not thier mouth tee hee..

So who are the true followers of Christ who are teaching 100% correctly his word today?

So which Christian is preaching the whole truth? Like I said, Christian X believe Y, while another Christian believe something else.

You said "The Holy Spirit teach everyone". So why is there no unity among Protestants?

Blessings,
Ramon

 

[Anglian]

Dear MamaZ

Hi there.

I see what you are saying, and it seems to be a part of your tradition, for it is nowhere written that Scripture can interpret Scripture, for nowhere in Scripture does it define what is and is not Scripture; this is the weakness in your tradition.

What is in the NT was not defined by your Assembly. It was defined, as I endeavoured to point out much earlier in this thread, by a process of which the ECFs were an important part. The earliest bound books we have contain texts which were edited out by the Church; that would be the Church which Christ founded, whose Apostles transmitted His teachings to the world through their teaching, and whose Fathers were able to identify which books should be in the NT.

So, you are relying for your inspiration upon a book edited by the Church. Now, either the men in that Church were simply men, in which case we are all following the tradition of men; or they were inspired, in which case the Church speaks with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - and it still does.

As my last post pointed out, you and I only know that the Holy Spirit is divine and of one essence with the Father and the Son thanks to St. Gregory Nazianzus; where, in Holy Scripture, does it say that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity and is of equal divinity? Yet it is this same Holy Spirit you claim as inspiration for your views; you do not know He is of one essence with the Father from Scripture; you know it from the Church.

What is a little strange is that each Protestant claims for him or herself something they deny to the Roman Pontiff - personal infallibility, which is, actually, not what the Pope claims. He only claims to be infallible when speaking from the seat of St. Peter.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

So who are the true followers of Christ who are teaching 100% correctly his word today?

So which Christian is preaching the whole truth? Like I said, Christian X believe Y, while another Christian believe something else.

You said "The Holy Spirit teach everyone". So why is there no unity among Protestants?

Blessings,
Ramon

Plenty of unity in protestants. Just not uniformity.. Two different words there.. I said the Holy Spirit teaches His true sheep not everyone.. LOL.. Difference there..

 

[Ramon96]

I cannot trust this at all for number one I do not see successors in the scriptures.. It is not a hand me down calling. For all callings and gifts are from God and notanded down from man to man.

Please read Acts 1:15-26. Someone was the successor of Judas. Plus, Saint Paul taught Apostolic Succession.

If I cannot line up teaching to scripture then how do I know it is truth? For Jesus says that His word is truth.. The only word I have is what is written. I don't know if Tom who says this is tradtion is speaking truth. So I take it to the scriptures to see if what Tom says is actually written in the pages of scripture to see if indeed what He says is truth.

Christ gave the authority to the Church to guide and teach people. The Early Christians follow both what was written and unwritten from the Holy Apostles.

If you wish to follow Sola-Scriptura, then where is that in Scriptures? Stop giving me "Just-so" statements.

I put my trust in no man.. I only put my trust in Christ and the written scriptures.

The fact is that the Church was the ultimate authority in deciding the Canon of Scriptures, not Scriptures themselves. You have to appeal to the ECF. The Church was guided back then by the Holy Spirit, and it is still is.

Blessings,
Ramon

 

[Montalban]

If I cannot line up teaching to scripture then how do I know it is truth? For Jesus says that His word is truth..

*sigh*

Where does he say only his written word is truth?

It's odd you want to 'trust' the Holy Spirit, who is not the written word, but then you leap to the written word as the only truth.

 

[Montalban]

2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

notice Paul says from us and not from others? Pretty clear here that Paul was speaking about the Apostles and that we were to stand firm in what we are taught through Letter from Them or from Oral From them and not from hand me down hear say. Paul is no longer around to teach us orally.. So therefore all we have proof of what he spoke now is from the letters now known as scripture.

Who was 'us'? Not just Paul.

This is going around in circles.

 

[MamaZ]

Dear MamaZ

Hi there.

I see what you are saying, and it seems to be a part of your tradition, for it is nowhere written that Scripture can interpret Scripture, for nowhere in Scripture does it define what is and is not Scripture; this is the weakness in your tradition.

What is in the NT was not defined by your Assembly. It was defined, as I endeavoured to point out much earlier in this thread, by a process of which the ECFs were an important part. The earliest bound books we have contain texts which were edited out by the Church; that would be the Church which Christ founded, whose Apostles transmitted His teachings to the world through their teaching, and whose Fathers were able to identify which books should be in the NT.

So, you are relying for your inspiration upon a book edited by the Church. Now, either the men in that Church were simply men, in which case we are all following the tradition of men; or they were inspired, in which case the Church speaks with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - and it still does.

As my last post pointed out, you and I only know that the Holy Spirit is divine and of one essence with the Father and the Son thanks to St. Gregory Nazianzus; where, in Holy Scripture, does it say that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity and is of equal divinity? Yet it is this same Holy Spirit you claim as inspiration for your views; you do not know He is of one essence with the Father from Scripture; you know it from the Church.

What is a little strange is that each Protestant claims for him or herself something they deny to the Roman Pontiff - personal infallibility, which is, actually, not what the Pope claims. He only claims to be infallible when speaking from the seat of St. Peter.

Peace,

Anglian

One must understand that when one has the Spirit of truth in them they have discernment. For the Spirit of God will lead us into His truth and no one elses voice do we follow.. Jesus sheep know the voice of their shepherd and Jesus tells us that no other will they follow.

 

[Ramon96]

Plenty of unity in protestants. Just not uniformity.. Two different words there.. I said the Holy Spirit teaches His true sheep not everyone.. LOL.. Difference there..

So where is the Holy Spirit teaching now, since every Christian is teaching differently? Where is His True Sheep that is teaching 100% truth and not falsehood?

 

[MamaZ]

LOL Protestants stand on the written word of God and not the written word of man. This is the difference.

 

[Montalban]

Been answered..

No, you haven't answered me at all. All you do is repeat the same mistake over and over again.

"Written word = good. Spoken word = bad."Because it is, because it is, because it is. Here you have to invent a condition to make the 'tradition' bad...

Paul did not hold back anything from his hearers.. We read this in
Act 20:27 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.
No Hidden tradtions that we have to follow.. For Paul is very straight forward in the scriptures.. He preached Christ and Him crucified and risen to the saving of the Soul.. Peter preached the same. The list goes on.

How are traditions 'hidden'?

Note too it's "Acts" of the Apostles. Not "Faith" of the Apostles. They actually did something.

 

[Ramon96]

LOL Protestants stand on the written word of God and not the written word of man. This is the difference.

Yea, and every Protestant have different conclusion on this "written word of God", all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit. No unity there Mama.

 

[Montalban]

LOL Protestants stand on the written word of God and not the written word of man. This is the difference.

This shows you can not formulate an argument based on a reasonable stance. All you do is continually repeat your just-so statements. Because it is, because it is, because it is.

 

[MamaZ]

So where is the Holy Spirit teaching now, since every Christian is teaching differently? Where is His True Sheep that is teaching 100% truth and not falsehood?

Are they peaching the scripture and not holding on to tradtions of men? Are they preaching the cross of Christ? For it is at the cross of Christ where all men stand on equal ground. For men are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves but is a gift of God.

 

[Montalban]

So where is the Holy Spirit teaching now, since every Christian is teaching differently? Where is His True Sheep that is teaching 100% truth and not falsehood?

I expect you'll just get more of the same. It's like the mantra, or the meaningless repitition of the pagans that we were warned against.

Have the educational standards of the Deep South fallen so badly that one confuses 'just-so' statements with argument?

 

[Ramon96]

Are they peaching the scripture and not holding on to tradtions of men? Are they preaching the cross of Christ? For it is at the cross of Christ where all men stand on equal ground. For men are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves but is a gift of God.

That wasn't the question I ask.

So where is the Holy Spirit teaching now, since every Christian is teaching differently? Where is His True Sheep that is teaching 100% truth and not falsehood?

Every Protestant Christian is preaching the Scriptures, and every Protestant Christians are preaching the cross of Christ, and yet all clench to different beliefs and interpretation of Scriptures. Every Protestant Christian is using the same authority as you do, but some reason reason they all can not agree. So must for your fallacy logic that the Holy Spirit teach every Christian silently without the Church.