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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

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Ramon96

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I answered your question about who the Holy Spirit is teaching now.. Same as He always has. His sheep. Each one of His sheep. Individually.

But ["specifically"] who is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today? All Protestant Christians are during what you suggest, and yet all have came to different conclusions. Do you and your Church interpret Scriptures correctly?

Why is everyone having different opinions [doctrines] if the Holy Spirit is teaching every Christian? Is God the author of confusion? Is God drunk because he telling "Tom" in the Baptize Church one thing while he is telling "Bob", over at the Lutheran Church, something else that contradicts what he told "Tom"?

Boy, the Holy Spirit is very confuse! He is telling the Baptize Church one thing while he went to the Pentecostal, Lutheran, and others Churches and tell them something totally different!

It seems you cannot answer these questions as you have been ignoring these questions for the longest!

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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Montalban

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All I hear from you is the same over and over myself.. So kettle I am pot...

You've not answered me at all. I ask where does scripture say scripture is enough and you just say 'scripture is enough'. That is a 'just-so' statement. It is, because it is, because it is.

As to where did Jesus teach us about tradition.

Paul says to a church to keep to what he taught by word of mouth and by scripture.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

See, I answer you. You've still not answered me.
 
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Montalban

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Since we see that the Scriptures are pure.. Why would you need anything else?

Paul himself gives a quotation from Jesus that was handed down orally to him: "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). This saying is not recorded in the Gospels and must have been passed on to Paul. And therefore Paul himself uses tradition as a guide for teaching. Scripture itself was not sufficient for Pau!

He also quotes from other non-Biblical sources, such as this early hymn
Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

By Protestant 'logic' Paul had no right to do so, however once it's written down in the Bible it's now okay! :confused:

He says that is authority to teach comes from the lord (1 Thessalonians 4:2). He doesn't use Scripture as authority.

Paul himself handed on faith...
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed" (1 Corinthians 15:3,11).

Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions as I delivered them to you (I Corinthians 11:2)

“Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle”
(II Thessalonians 2:15)

The Ethiopian gives a clue to being 'taught' the Word...
Acts 8
30
Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
In other words, he called upon a minister (deacon) to guide him in his readings of the word.
Also, the Ethiopian finds faith, but needs to be baptised (a sacrament).
Acts 10
Cornelius the Roman soldier, finds faith in God, but needs Peter to come to his house before he receives the Holy Spirit. Faith alone was not enough.
In fact, the very name “Acts of the Apostles” not “Faith of the Apostles” tells you something. If faith were alone, then the Bible would have finished at the time Christ rose into heaven; instead it goes on to show what the Apostles did; they taught, they organised, they conferred the gifts of the Holy Spirit upon people.

It is clear that the Ethiopian's desire to learn was not enough. He had to be taught.


St. Ignatius, taught by St. Peter himself, and writing before the Bible was compiled wrote...
Epistle to the Ephesians
CHAPTER 5
5:1 For if I in a short time had such converse with your bishop, which was not after the manner of men but in the Spirit, how much more do I congratulate you who are closely joined with him as the Church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things may be harmonious in unity.

This reflects the Epistle;
Titus 1:7 Since a bishop is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless–not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
 
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Montalban

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Where Does Jesus lead us to anything other than it is written? Where does Jesus ever teach that tradtion is something to cling too? Where does Jesus ever teach anything other than His word, Himself and the Father and Holy Spirit to be truth?

So when Jesus took part in Passover (a tradition) it meant nothing?
 
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Montalban

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Scripture are written accounts lol... Probably to you it refutes because you believe it is the leader of the church that interprets the scripture you use to try and refute sola scriptura... Pauls Oral teaching left with Him because we were to listen to only what He taught orally and not what someone else said he said.. Where do you see that we are to follow after hearsay and gossip?

You've still managed not to answer th question. You've gone for days doing this.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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MamaZ said:
Actually I have what the Holy Spirit said to the earliest of the Church via the Apostles.. These are those that built on the foundation of Christ. The sent ones chosen by God. :) The foundation of what Christ wanted taught to His people His sheep. These are what we are to build upon. Not on hear say handed down from mouth to mouth through fallable man kind of like the gossip game. :)

How can we believe that you have the ability to discern scripture when you can't comprehend that the Apostles handed their knowledge to the Early Church Fathers.:confused: How can you justify your theory of the time gap between the Apostles and the canonization of the Bible? Who do you think protected the scripture? It was the Holy Spirit guided ECFs.
 
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Montalban

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How can we believe that you have the ability to discern scripture when you can't comprehend that the Apostles handed their knowledge to the Early Church Fathers. How can you justify your theory of the time gap between the Apostles and the canonization of the Bible? Who do you think protected the scripture? It was the Holy Spirit guided ECFs.

So far the only responses I've seen are to repeat that it just is so. And LittleLambofJesus who is determined to state that he doesn't want to state anything.

I think that's the problem with their belief, when they're confronted with facts. The reactions they give! :doh:

The offices of deacon, priest and bishop were established in the NT. There's a reason that they did this. There's nothing in the NT to say that these offices were only for that time.
 
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Gwendolyn

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I'm still having a really difficult time understanding how we can trust the things we feel convicted of when we are reading & interpreting Scripture personally. A really nice lady I know goes to a different church than I do, where they believe different things on Salvation - like, they believe in saying the sinner's prayer, and accepting Christ and that's all you need ever. You're saved for good and it can't be taken away. But I don't think so - I think that Salvation is something we have to aim for throughout our entire lives. Like if I accept Christ but then fall and have premarital sex, I have to repent, right? WHy should I repent if I can't lose my Salvation? I think you can lose it.

Anyway, the point is, we're both convicted in this matter, and it is a pretty critical issue. She feels that the Spirit is leading her one way based on how she has read Scripture, and I feel the Spirit is leading me another. I don't understand how we can both be right... there has to be some other way to understand this issue rather than saying "you just know" if the Spirit is leading you...

Anyway it's just an issue that's been bothering me.
 
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But ["specifically"] who is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today? All Protestant Christians are during what you suggest, and yet all have came to different conclusions. Do you and your Church interpret Scriptures correctly?

Why is everyone having different opinions [doctrines] if the Holy Spirit is teaching every Christian? Is God the author of confusion? Is God drunk because he telling "Tom" in the Baptize Church one thing while he is telling "Bob", over at the Lutheran Church, something else that contradicts what he told "Tom"?

Boy, the Holy Spirit is very confuse! He is telling the Baptize Church one thing while he went to the Pentecostal, Lutheran, and others Churches and tell them something totally different!

It seems you cannot answer these questions as you have been ignoring these questions for the longest!

Blessings,
Ramon
The Holy Spirit teaches each person individually His word. :) We the people are His body. It is not in the denomination that matters but in the heart of the believer. The assembling of ourselves together is to bring Glory to God. The scripture being preached and taught. As the scripture is being preached the Holy Spirit quickens the word to the believers heart. Different walks and different levels of maturity within the body of Christ. It is Christ in us that is the hope of Glory..
 
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2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

notice Paul says from us and not from others? Pretty clear here that Paul was speaking about the Apostles and that we were to stand firm in what we are taught through Letter from Them or from Oral From them and not from hand me down hear say. Paul is no longer around to teach us orally.. So therefore all we have proof of what he spoke now is from the letters now known as scripture.
 
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Ramon96

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The Holy Spirit teaches each person individually His word. :) We the people are His body. It is not in the denomination that matters but in the heart of the believer. The assembling of ourselves together is to bring Glory to God. The scripture being preached and taught. As the scripture is being preached the Holy Spirit quickens the word to the believers heart. Different walks and different levels of maturity within the body of Christ. It is Christ in us that is the hope of Glory..

O.k, you are not getting this. O.k, stop, sit down, drink a cup of water and read carefully:

But ["specifically"] who [or what group] is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? Why is there no unity within Protestantism? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today? All Protestant Christians are during what you suggest, and yet all have came to different conclusions. Do you and your Church interpret Scriptures correctly?

Why is everyone having different opinions [doctrines] if the Holy Spirit is teaching every Christian? Is God the author of confusion? Is God drunk because he telling "Tom" in the Baptize Church one thing while he is telling "Bob", over at the Lutheran Church, something else that contradicts what he told "Tom"?

You said, "The Holy Spirit teaches each person individually His word", but why then does every Protestant Christian believe differently? Who is he teaching now, since Bob said X while Tom said X? I just cannot understand your logic. If what you say is correct then there must be a person or group of people that are Christians that teach the fullness of the truth. What I want to know is "who". Remember, Christian X believe Y, while another Christian believe something different. You can't just say "Christians" since every Christian teach differently.

The Body of Christ cannot be divided, and will never be divided. If so, it ceases to be the Body of Christ. So we can not have "different walks". There is only One walk, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit.

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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Ramon96

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2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

notice Paul says from us and not from others? Pretty clear here that Paul was speaking about the Apostles and that we were to stand firm in what we are taught through Letter from Them or from Oral From them and not from hand me down hear say. Paul is no longer around to teach us orally.. So therefore all we have proof of what he spoke now is from the letters now known as scripture.

Wrong!

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph 4:11)

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15)

"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2).
In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach. So the Church teach us what she learn from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Apostles passed along there teachings to the Early Church Fathers!

Thus, The Holy Spirit was sent down on the Apostles on Pentecost, and they were given the charisma to serve and lead the Church. This charisma they passed on to their successors, the Bishops, who in turn passed it on to their own successors, even to this present day.

Apparently Saint Paul pass along his teachings (written and unwritten) form to the Early Bishops who in turn pass it along to the Early Christians and other Bishops. We [Orthodox] follow what Christ' Church has taught for the past 2,000 years, neither adding to the faith nor subtracting from it.

So you agree that Saint Paul did not told the Early Christians to follow ONLY what was written, correct? So the Holy Apostles never taught Sola-Scriptura, correct?

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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You've not answered me at all. I ask where does scripture say scripture is enough and you just say 'scripture is enough'. That is a 'just-so' statement. It is, because it is, because it is.

As to where did Jesus teach us about tradition.

Paul says to a church to keep to what he taught by word of mouth and by scripture.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

See, I answer you. You've still not answered me.
Been answered..Paul did not hold back anything from his hearers.. We read this in
Act 20:27 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.
No Hidden tradtions that we have to follow.. For Paul is very straight forward in the scriptures.. He preached Christ and Him crucified and risen to the saving of the Soul.. Peter preached the same. The list goes on.
 
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O.k, you are not getting this. O.k, stop, sit down, drink a cup of water and read carefully:

But ["specifically"] who is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today? All Protestant Christians are during what you suggest, and yet all have came to different conclusions. Do you and your Church interpret Scriptures correctly?

Why is everyone having different opinions [doctrines] if the Holy Spirit is teaching every Christian? Is God the author of confusion? Is God drunk because he telling "Tom" in the Baptize Church one thing while he is telling "Bob", over at the Lutheran Church, something else that contradicts what he told "Tom"?

You said, "The Holy Spirit teaches each person individually His word", but why then does every Protestant Christian believe differently? Who is he teaching down, since Bob said X while Tom said X? I just cannot understand your logic.

The Body of Christ cannot be divided, and will never be divided. If so, it ceases to be the Body of Christ. So we can not have "different walks". There is only One walk, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit.

Blessings,
Ramon
The Holy Spirit teaches us through the written scriptures. Not every protestant Christian believes different. :) This is fallacy on your part. :) I can go to the baptist church and hear the word of God preached and God will quicken it to my heart. I can also go to a Nazarene Church and gleam from the preaching of the word of God. I can go to a non denominational church and gleam from the Scripture being preached. It is not in the denomination for the 4th time.. It is from the Holy Spirit and the preacing of the scriptures..
 
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Wrong!

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph 4:11)

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15)

"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach. So the Church teach us what she learn from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Apostles passed along there teachings to the Early Church Fathers!

Thus, The Holy Spirit was sent down on the Apostles on Pentecost, and they were given the charisma to serve and lead the Church. This charisma they passed on to their successors, the Bishops, who in turn passed it on to their own successors, even to this present day.

Apparently Saint Paul pass along his teachings (written and unwritten) form to the Early Bishops who in turn pass it along to the Early Christians and other Bishops. We [Orthodox] follow what Christ' Church has taught for the past 2,000 years, neither adding to the faith nor subtracting from it.

So you agree that Saint Paul did not told the Early Christians to follow ONLY what was written, correct? So the Holy Apostles never taught Sola-Scriptura, correct?

Blessings,
Ramon
One must have the Spirit of God in them to understand the things of God. If they do not then the things of God are foolishness to them. Notice that what is given to faithful men.. One who will not add to nor take away from what was taught by Paul through the letters and His preaching. We have the Apostles that were given the calling and chosen by God and not man to lay the foundation upon the already layed foundation of Christ. Now we the body of Christ are to be careful on how we build upon the foundation layed by the Apostles.. What that foundation is, is found in the scriptures that are binding. :) This is why we read that the scriptures are not of any interpretation of men but men moved by the Holy Spirit to pen them.
 
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Ramon96

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The Holy Spirit teaches us through the written scriptures. Not every protestant Christian believes different. :) This is fallacy on your part. :) I can go to the baptist church and hear the word of God preached and God will quicken it to my heart. I can also go to a Nazarene Church and gleam from the preaching of the word of God. I can go to a non denominational church and gleam from the Scripture being preached. It is not in the denomination for the 4th time.. It is from the Holy Spirit and the preacing of the scriptures..

Where in Scriptures does it teach that the Holy Spirit teaches us through the written Scriptures ONLY?

They may share some core beliefs, but a Baptize Church will [and does] teach differently than a Nazarene Church. A Baptize Church may teach OSAS, while a Non-Denominational Church will say OSAS is false. The list can go on. That is a Fact. They both claim to follow Christ and both claim to teach what the Holy Spirit tells them. Protestantism has no unity. Every Protestant group who teach something that is not shared by another Protestant Church.

So my question remain:

But ["specifically"] who [or what group] is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? Why is there no unity within Protestantism? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today? All Protestant Christians are during what you suggest, and yet all have came to different conclusions. Do you and your Church interpret Scriptures correctly?

So which Christian is preaching the whole truth? Like I said, Christian X believe Y, while another Christian believe something else.

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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What you are not getting is that what Paul spoke orally to those he Preached to is not binding to us because I was not there to hear first hand what Paul taught orally.. But I can be pretty sure He preached orally what he wrote. There would not be any add ons to what was written or God would have made sure that it was written so that His sheep would know what it was we are to hear and have faith in. Just because men may say that so and so knew so and so and said that Paul said this it cannot be proved that Paul actually said this so I am not bound to that.. I was not there to hear what Paul Preached orally.. No one is today.
 
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Ramon96

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One must have the Spirit of God in them to understand the things of God. If they do not then the things of God are foolishness to them. Notice that what is given to faithful men.. One who will not add to nor take away from what was taught by Paul through the letters and His preaching. We have the Apostles that were given the calling and chosen by God and not man to lay the foundation upon the already layed foundation of Christ. Now we the body of Christ are to be careful on how we build upon the foundation layed by the Apostles.. What that foundation is, is found in the scriptures that are binding. :) This is why we read that the scriptures are not of any interpretation of men but men moved by the Holy Spirit to pen them.

First, every Christian say they have the Spirit of God, so that does not prove anything. Christian X have the Holy Spirit but believe and teach something totally different from Christian Y who also have the Holy Spirit. Thus, Your logic of "every man for himself" is fallacy.

Second, "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach. So the Church teach us what she learn from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Apostles passed along there teachings to the Early Church Fathers!

Who was these "faithful men" who was able to teach others? Why can't you believe that the Holy Apostles Successors kept the faith and passed it along [written and unwritten], since Scriptures teach that?

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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Where in Scriptures does it teach that the Holy Spirit teaches us through the written Scriptures ONLY?

They may share some core beliefs, but a Baptize Church will [and does] teach differently than a Nazarene Church. A Baptize Church may teach OSAS, while a Non-Denominational Church will say OSAS is false. The list can go on. That is a Fact. They both claim to follow Christ and both claim to teach what the Holy Spirit tells them. Protestantism has no unity. Every Protestant group who teach something that is not shared by another Protestant Church.

So my question remain:

But ["specifically"] who [or what group] is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? Why is there no unity within Protestantism? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today? All Protestant Christians are during what you suggest, and yet all have came to different conclusions. Do you and your Church interpret Scriptures correctly?

So which Christian is preaching the whole truth? Like I said, Christian X believe Y, while another Christian believe something else.

Blessings,
Ramon
Who cares what other people believe? I have the scriptures to read and study to show myself approved. I take everything to the scriptures to see if indeed what they say lines up with the written scriptures..If it does not line up then I am not bound by what man says. Only what the scriptures say. For I am not mans bondservant. I am Jesus bondservant following after Him as my shepherd..
 
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