Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

Major1 said:

the twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Israel,

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Could it also be the 12 Apostles?

Eloy Craft said:

Could it also be the 12 Apostles?

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Could be, although some would argue that there were actually at least 13 Apostles, even as there were 13 actual tribes of Israel (Joseph's two sons each became a separate tribe).

Stars are a symbol of individual persons in biblical language. So the stars surrounding Israel wouldn't symbolize a tribe but rather the father of the tribe. The interpretation of the woman being Israel the nation, in regards of the stars, is less fitting than Israel as a person. excepting of course the person Israel is not a woman. The woman God told Hosea to have children with symbolized Israel. The problem with that is she isn't fit for heaven and the Prophet wrote about the reconciliation of the children but not their mother. That's a problem since there is no city or nation of the chosen people that ended reconciled to Christ. Even Paul had to reference a "Jerusalem from above" to explain the contemporary symbology of the two women that underlie The OT account of salvation history. It's interesting that Paul say's the free woman is our mother since they were introduced in Scriptures as the daughters of one mother. It seems the underlying current of Woman has come full circle from our original mother Eve to our spiritual mother from above. As Eve the stars around her head are her sons. As Sarah the stars would be her great grandchildren. It would be most fitting then if the stars that surround the woman in Rev. 12 were the Apostles.

Hidden In Him said:

Israel. Why are you asking?

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Israel?
1)There is no such thing as Israel!
2) since when does Israel keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus?
Her offspring (spiritual children) keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus! Rev 12

b4jesustoday said:

Israel?
1)There is no such thing as Israel!
2) since when does Israel keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus?
Her offspring (spiritual children) keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus! Rev 12

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It is nice to meet folks whose Bibles consist only of New Testaments and do not have anything known as the Old Testament.

The new covenant church replaced Israel!

Woman is Mary ever Virgin Mother of God
Man child is Jesus
Dragon is Satan
Her children are Christians

Romans 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Eloy Craft said:

Could it also be the 12 Apostles?

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Not in my humble opinion brother.

Consider the CONTEXT of the Scriptures in Rev. 12:1-2..........
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

Which one of the Apostles was a "woman"?
Which one of the Apostles was pregnant?
Which one of the Apostles delivered a child?

Now consider Rev. 12:6
"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

Which Apostle fled into the wilderness for 3 and 1/2 years?

The "Woman" can not be from the church because the church did not bring forth the child.
The child who is the Christ was the ONE who brought forth the church which means that the woman can not be Mary either.

bbbbbbb said:

Thank you for the excellent post. You are absolutely correct that Revelation 12 is critical to understanding not only the book of Revelation, but God's plan for mankind.

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God bless you my brother. What a blessing it is to have agreement over the Word of God with someone instead of a debate!!!

Eloy Craft said:

The thing is with an archetype like Woman. It encompasses Woman as she originated as Adam's wife and encompasses Woman as she journey's through history Zacharia.5 Ezekiel 23. and her end in Glory. She is Israel giving birth to messiah and that was painful, but that doesn't mean she isn't also the real actual Woman that really actually gave birth to the messiah.

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Yes it does my brother because ....if you go down that path of error you will ultimatly mess up everything in the prophetic Word of God.

In Gen. 37:6-10 Jacob clearly understood that he was the sun, his wife was the moon, and his twelve children were the stars. This is the root of the nation of Israel.

Then In Revelation, these symbols are used for two reasons.......
1. To signify the root of the woman portrayed there, that she is Israelitish: sun, moon, stars—Jacob, Rachel, and the twelve sons.

2. But the sun, moon, and stars also have a secondary meaning: to indicate glory. She is a glorious woman—one that can be associated with the glorious things in the heaven—the sun, moon, and stars.

Note this allusion to glory because, as God is looking at Israel at this time—that is, in the prophetic sense, in the time within the prophecies—Israel is glorious. Israel's beginning was glorious—glorious as the heavenly bodies.

Major: Neither. It is the nation of Israel.

JL: Was natural Israel even a virgin when Christ came? Judgement was brought on natural Israel in 70AD.

Because of unbelief, rejecting Christ, natural Israel was cut off from the one and only Olive Tree=spiritual Israel=Church, see Romans11:1-36. Born again Gentiles have been grafted into that Olive Tree and now Abrahams seed along with all those Jews who accepted and continue to accept Christ in every age. In the last days all natural Israel will be saved as a nation, Rms11:25-26, grafted back into the Olive Tree=the Israel of God, Rms11:1-36.

[Rms2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.]k

[Rms11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:]k

This is not replacement of Israel but a continuation of Abraham’s seed, spiritual Israel, the Israel of God=Church.

[Gal3:26 For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 and if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise[/b].]k

[1Cor12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or gentiles[/b] , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.]

Major1: Now, stay close and follow along...... Genesis 3:16...... "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you." So, lets connect the "dots" ...

PAIN in childbirth is Gods CURSE upon women, for ORIGINAL SIN ... before that, no pain, after that, PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH...now is that Biblically correct right? Please take your time and read the Bible Scriptures and then do a google search on this to see if I am correct. I am correct but there is safty in numbers. Now We know that the woman in Revelation delivered IN TRAIL AND PAIN = the woman carries the CURSE of PAIN.

JL: Gn3:6 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.]k

God said he would greatly multiply sorrow for birth. Which by implication indicates there could have been some sorrow=pain before the fall. The immaculate conception is a dogma, but whether Mary had pain or not is still open to theological speculation. Most seem to believe Mary suffered no birth pain. Either way it would not change the dogma of her immaculate conception. If there was any pain it would not have to be literal birth pain. It could be concern for what Joseph would do when he found her with child or the pain of having to travel a week in the cold to register in Bethlehem and finding no room in the Inn, giving birth in a cave, etc.

[Gal4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,]k

[Rms8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.]k

Major1: Now we ask... Does Catholicism have as DOGMA, that Mary was SINLESS? Yes, she does, in a brand new Dogma the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, Mary was without SIN from Conception.

So then, Mary did NOT carry the CURSE from the Garden, is that right? Again, take the time to study this. Use your computer to do a seach. So then .... No curse = NO PAIN.

So, EITHER----------- 1. The "woman" in Revelation is NOT Mary {and "she is not" she is the nation of Israel). 2. OR she IS MARY, but the PAIN showed that the DOGMA of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION IS IN ERROR.

JL: John the Baptist while not conceived without sin was born without sin. He was sanctified in his mother’s womb. There is no reason to believe Elizabeth didn’t have birth pains. With your theory, with pain, John could not have been born without sin.

[Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.]k

Major1: Now you have only TWO choices on this subject......Pick one. Either way, the RCC has a real problem in its teaching. [/QUOTE]

JL: There is no problem at all, If the dragon is a literal person=Satan and the child is a literal person=Christ, that literal child must have a literal mother=Mary. In Rev the woman is both a person=Mary and symbolic of the Church=spiritual Israel. When the literal woman gives birth to the literal child=Christ both are on earth and the child is caught up to heaven.

[Rv11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.]k

It is the woman symbolic of the Church=spiritual Israel Gal6:16, in heaven travailing throughout the ages to be delivered of those Jews and Gentiles, born again by water and of the Spirit=baptism through the womb of the Church.

JLHargus said:

Major1: Now we ask... Does Catholicism have as DOGMA, that Mary was SINLESS? Yes, she does, in a brand new Dogma the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, Mary was without SIN from Conception.

So then, Mary did NOT carry the CURSE from the Garden, is that right? Again, take the time to study this. Use your computer to do a seach. So then .... No curse = NO PAIN.

So, EITHER----------- 1. The "woman" in Revelation is NOT Mary {and "she is not" she is the nation of Israel). 2. OR she IS MARY, but the PAIN showed that the DOGMA of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION IS IN ERROR.

JL: John the Baptist while not conceived without sin was born without sin. He was sanctified in his mother’s womb. There is no reason to believe she didn’t have birth pains. With your theory, no pain, John could not have been born without sin.

[Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.]k

Major1: Now you have only TWO choices on this subject......Pick one. Either way, the RCC has a real problem in its teaching.

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JL: There is no problem at all, If the dragon is a literal person=Satan and the child is a literal person=Christ, that literal child must have a literal mother=Mary. In Rev the woman is both a person=Mary and symbolic of the Church=spiritual Israel. When the literal woman gives birth to the literal child=Christ both are on earth and the child is caught up to heaven.

[Rv11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.]k

It is the woman symbolic of the Church=spiritual Israel Gal6:16, in heaven travailing throughout the ages to be delivered of those Jews and Gentiles, born again by water and of the Spirit=baptism through the womb of the Church.[/QUOTE]

Just one note on your otherwise difficult-to-read post. As an aside, you ought to learn how to use the "quote" and "reply" prompts at the bottom right corner of a post.

My note is that the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception has nothing at all to do with John the Baptist. I recommend that you read this - Immaculate Conception - Wikipedia

The clear understanding of this dogma is that Mary, being without sin in any sense of the word, was not subject to the effects of sin, which includes bearing children in pain (which was the curse inflicted by God on Eve at the Fall). In fact, the related dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary) clearly maintains that she remained a complete virgin following the birth of Jesus Christ, with an unbroken hymen. Jesus Christ was, therefore, very miraculously delivered from Mary's womb through her side.

The clear implication based on these two dogmas is that the woman in Revelation 12 cannot be Mary.

b4jesustoday said:

)There is no such thing as Israel!

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b4jesustoday said:

2) since when does Israel keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus?

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b4jesustoday said:

The new covenant church replaced Israel!

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Matthew 10:6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Luke 1:33 "And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end."

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James 1:2 "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

James 1:3 "Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience."

James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, That giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Revelation 21:12 "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.

There's more but many of the seed of Israel have the testimony of Christ.

n/m

pdudgeon said:

Just one note on your otherwise difficult-to-read post. As an aside, you ought to learn how to use the "quote" and "reply" prompts at the bottom right corner of a post.

My note is that the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception has nothing at all to do with John the Baptist. I recommend that you read this - Immaculate Conception - Wikipedia

The clear understanding of this dogma is that Mary, being without sin in any sense of the word, was not subject to the effects of sin, which includes bearing children in pain (which was the curse inflicted by God on Eve at the Fall). In fact, the related dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary) clearly maintains that she remained a complete virgin following the birth of Jesus Christ, with an unbroken hymen. Jesus Christ was, therefore, very miraculously delivered from Mary's womb through her side.

The clear implication based on these two dogmas is that the woman in Revelation 12 cannot be Mary.

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The woman in Revelations 12 IS Mary, the mother of Christ.
The 12 stars in the crown represent the 12 apostles.

• As such, while on Earth she was the Mother of Christ, and in Heaven, she now holds a similar position to that of the late Queen Mother of England did for her daughter, Queen Elizabeth II, who is the Queen on Earth of England.
• And thus Mary stands beside her Son, and can thus input her pleas as intercessions on our behalf to Jesus.
• She can also act on His behalf through visions, dreams, and appearances, to warn us of things to come, so that we might prepare ourselves and make good choices.

Mary, the Mother of Christ, has been honored and crowned by both God and the Risen Christ in recognition of her earthly life and her voluntary acceptance of that position to which God raised her on Earth.
The bestowing of the crown in Heaven is a reward that she earned while here on Earth, and is in recognition of her sacrificial life here on Earth.[/QUOTE]

Did the ever-virgin Mary, whose hymen remains unbroken to this very day, experience pain in giving birth to Jesus Christ?

bbbbbbb said:

My note is that the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception has nothing at all to do with John the Baptist. I recommend that you read this - Immaculate Conception - Wikipedia

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Of course John has nothing to do with the Immaculate Conceptions. The point is if John can be sanctified in his mother womb, Mary can certainly be sanctified at conception.

JLHargus said:

Of course John has nothing to do with the Immaculate Conceptions. The point is if John can be sanctified in his mother womb, Mary can certainly be sanctified at conception.

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Isaiah was sanctified (set apart) as well. In actual fact, nobody who is born is not set apart for some purpose by God, unless you happen to believe in a God who is not omnipotent. We have absolutely no indication in any of the writings of the first three centuries of Christianity of the notion of God having purposely created Mary entirely without sin, without any free will, and completely programmed by God.

JLHargus said:

Major: Neither. It is the nation of Israel.

JL: Was natural Israel even a virgin when Christ came? Judgement was brought on natural Israel in 70AD.

Because of unbelief, rejecting Christ, natural Israel was cut off from the one and only Olive Tree=spiritual Israel=Church, see Romans11:1-36. Born again Gentiles have been grafted into that Olive Tree and now Abrahams seed along with all those Jews who accepted and continue to accept Christ in every age. In the last days all natural Israel will be saved as a nation, Rms11:25-26, grafted back into the Olive Tree=the Israel of God, Rms11:1-36.

[Rms2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.]k

[Rms11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:]k

This is not replacement of Israel but a continuation of Abraham’s seed, spiritual Israel, the Israel of God=Church.

[Gal3:26 For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 and if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise[/b].]k

[1Cor12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or gentiles[/b] , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.]

Major1: Now, stay close and follow along...... Genesis 3:16...... "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you." So, lets connect the "dots" ...

PAIN in childbirth is Gods CURSE upon women, for ORIGINAL SIN ... before that, no pain, after that, PAIN IN CHILDBIRTH...now is that Biblically correct right? Please take your time and read the Bible Scriptures and then do a google search on this to see if I am correct. I am correct but there is safty in numbers. Now We know that the woman in Revelation delivered IN TRAIL AND PAIN = the woman carries the CURSE of PAIN.

JL: Gn3:6 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.]k

God said he would greatly multiply sorrow for birth. Which by implication indicates there could have been some sorrow=pain before the fall. The immaculate conception is a dogma, but whether Mary had pain or not is still open to theological speculation. Most seem to believe Mary suffered no birth pain. Either way it would not change the dogma of her immaculate conception. If there was any pain it would not have to be literal birth pain. It could be concern for what Joseph would do when he found her with child or the pain of having to travel a week in the cold to register in Bethlehem and finding no room in the Inn, giving birth in a cave, etc.

[Gal4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,]k

[Rms8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.]k

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NO where in Revelation 12 is there any mention of a "VIRGIN".

The real, literal words are......."WOMAN".

1. "A woman clothed with the sun".

This woman has been associated with many different religious ideas. Roman Catholics claim this woman is Mary, pictured as the “Queen of Heaven.”
Are you aware that Mary Baker Eddy (the founder of Christian Science) said she was this woman.

It is common in Roman Catholic art to represent Mary as standing on a crescent moon with twelve stars around her head.

A woman clothed with the sun.........
Scripturally, which is the only way I operate says that this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9-11.

In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

But there is more Scriptures In other Old Testament passages, where Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20).

2. (2) The woman gives birth.
Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

Being with child:
Later in the chapter, it is clear that this child born of Israel is Jesus (She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, Rev. 12:5.

She cried out in labor and in pain to give birth:
The pain described refers to the travail of Israel at the time of Jesus’ birth (under Roman occupation and oppression).