Who Is The Creator?

[gadar perets]

I would like to say up front that I will not reply to any Scripture bombing posts. Please limit the verses you post to around 3-5 verses. I would also hope that you will prayerfully consider what I post before you reply. Seek understanding first, then, if you see no truth in what I wrote, give your refutation. All too often people just blindly post their proof texts without even considering the alternate view being presented.

I will begin with Proverbs 30:4;

"Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?"​

Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has "established all the ends of the earth," not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ), the Son, is the Creator.

To back this up, I appeal to Isaiah 44:24;

"Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" (Isaiah 44:24)​

This verse leaves no room for co-creators or a Creator other than YHWH.

I know you have your verses that seem to say the Son created and you are welcome to post them later. First, I ask that you address only these two verses and how the Son fits in as the Creator. Then we can move on to other verses.

 

[Dartman]

I would like to say up front that I will not reply to any Scripture bombing posts. Please limit the verses you post to around 3-5 verses. I would also hope that you will prayerfully consider what I post before you reply. Seek understanding first, then, if you see no truth in what I wrote, give your refutation. All too often people just blindly post their proof texts without even considering the alternate view being presented.

I will begin with Proverbs 30:4;

"Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?"​

Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has "established all the ends of the earth," not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ), the Son, is the Creator.

To back this up, I appeal to Isaiah 44:24;

"Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" (Isaiah 44:24)​

This verse leaves no room for co-creators or a Creator other than YHWH.

I know you have your verses that seem to say the Son created and you are welcome to post them later. First, I ask that you address only these two verses and how the Son fits in as the Creator. Then we can move on to other verses.

Excellent points. Two favorite texts of mine, that both attribute the creation to God, while discussing Jesus as God's "servant" are;
ISA 42 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house. 8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.
So, who is Jehovah's servant in this text?
Who did Jehovah call in righteousness, and who did Jehovah give for a covenant of the people, and a light of the Gentiles?
And, it is Jehovah that created the heavens, and the earth!

And the same exact truths are expressed in;
Acts 4:24 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is: 25 who by the Holy Spirit, by the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say,

Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array,
And the rulers were gathered together,
Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:

27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, 28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, 30 while thou stretchest forth thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of thy holy Servant Jesus.

 

[tstor]

Would you say that the Father created everything through His Son (i.e., the Word)?

 

[gadar perets]

Would you say that the Father created everything through His Son (i.e., the Word)?

I would say the Father created everything through His Son, but the Son was not "the Word" (logos) before he was made flesh. The concept of creating "through" the Son is something I will address later on. I would like others to comment on the verses provided first.

 

[erealmz]

Please excuse my entry as it may not be contextual with the essence of this post. I offer no Scriptures on this one but instead wish to share an idea I've always had about creation.

As a game designer by hobby, I've realized that the tools used to create games (the software) are essential in the creation of those games. There would be no game if not a system to run it on and the software to make it with.

But the tools themselves did not always exist. Someone had to design and create them as well. For the sake of argument, say that someone did all the work himself. He made the computer. Developed the software. Then used that software on the computer to create a beautiful world. He alone did this even though the tools aided his efforts.

Continuing down this path, let's say that his world was so advanced that the "people" living in it were self aware. How would he enter this world to interact with them? He would have to create a character (his Avatar) and use it to log into his world. His Avatar might have more power than any of the people as it would have been written into his program before he entered the world. Nonetheless, his Avatar is not him. It is not the flesh and blood of a human being whom exists in a reality outside of the virtual one that those people know. It is merely a representation of his expressions that he wished to convey in his digital world. How else would he interact with it? Just a thought.

 

[Beorh]

I would like to say up front that I will not reply to any Scripture bombing posts. Please limit the verses you post to around 3-5 verses. I would also hope that you will prayerfully consider what I post before you reply. Seek understanding first, then, if you see no truth in what I wrote, give your refutation. All too often people just blindly post their proof texts without even considering the alternate view being presented.

I will begin with Proverbs 30:4;

"Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?"​

Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has "established all the ends of the earth," not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ), the Son, is the Creator.

To back this up, I appeal to Isaiah 44:24;

"Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" (Isaiah 44:24)​

This verse leaves no room for co-creators or a Creator other than YHWH.

I know you have your verses that seem to say the Son created and you are welcome to post them later. First, I ask that you address only these two verses and how the Son fits in as the Creator. Then we can move on to other verses.

Scripture also says that Jesus is Wisdom, and that he is also the Word (Logos and Rhema) of God. That makes him equal with God.

 

[gadar perets]

Please excuse my entry as it may not be contextual with the essence of this post. I offer no Scriptures on this one but instead wish to share an idea I've always had about creation.

As a game designer by hobby, I've realized that the tools used to create games (the software) are essential in the creation of those games. There would be no game if not a system to run it on and the software to make it with.

But the tools themselves did not always exist. Someone had to design and create them as well. For the sake of argument, say that someone did all the work himself. He made the computer. Developed the software. Then used that software on the computer to create a beautiful world. He alone did this even though the tools aided his efforts.

Continuing down this path, let's say that his world was so advanced that the "people" living in it were self aware. How would he enter this world to interact with them? He would have to create a character (his Avatar) and use it to log into his world. His Avatar might have more power than any of the people as it would have been written into his program before he entered the world. Nonetheless, his Avatar is not him. It is not the flesh and blood of a human being whom exists in a reality outside of the virtual one that those people know. It is merely a representation of his expressions that he wished to convey in his digital world. How else would he interact with it? Just a thought.

First, I would say that the true Creator of the Heavens and the Earth did not need any tools. He simply spoke everything into existence from nothing.

Second, while your scenario is feasible in your game, it is not in real life. The true Creator interacts with His creation through His creatures, primarily His prophets. The ultimate prophet was His Son Yeshua who came to save a broken world. The Creator put His Spirit into His Son and not only taught this fallen world how it could be fixed, but actually began to fix it. It is only a matter of time before it is functioning as the Creator originally intended it to function.

 

[gadar perets]

Scripture also says that Jesus is Wisdom, and that he is also the Word (Logos and Rhema) of God. That makes him equal with God.

This thread is about the identity of the Creator. It is not about whether or not Yeshua is equal to God. Please keep us on the subject.

 

[Beorh]

This thread is about the identity of the Creator. It is not about whether or not Yeshua is equal to God. Please keep us on the subject.

Jesus is the Creator. You are blaspheming God if you teach otherwise. How's that for keeping us on the subject?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would like to say up front that I will not reply to any Scripture bombing posts. Please limit the verses you post to around 3-5 verses. I would also hope that you will prayerfully consider what I post before you reply. Seek understanding first, then, if you see no truth in what I wrote, give your refutation. All too often people just blindly post their proof texts without even considering the alternate view being presented.

I will begin with Proverbs 30:4;

"Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?"​

Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has "established all the ends of the earth," not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ), the Son, is the Creator.

To back this up, I appeal to Isaiah 44:24;

"Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" (Isaiah 44:24)​

This verse leaves no room for co-creators or a Creator other than YHWH.

I know you have your verses that seem to say the Son created and you are welcome to post them later. First, I ask that you address only these two verses and how the Son fits in as the Creator. Then we can move on to other verses.

I believe that it is the Father who did the planning, the Son who was the Executive, and the Holy Spirit who did the actual work. I get that indication from the verse "The Holy Spirit moved over the waters". The Genesis record said that God (who probably was the Son), who said "Let there be light", and spoke the commands that resulted in the creation. Although I have no actual proof, I believe that it was the Holy Spirit who followed the commands of the Son, who commanded in terms of the plan the Father gave Him.

Jesus gave us an indication of how the Godhead worked together. The Father sent Jesus, who did everything the Father told Him, but was dependent on the Holy Spirit to empower Him. When Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father, He sent the Holy Spirit to empower us as we do what Jesus instructs us to do.

 

[St_Worm2]

I would like to say up front that I will not reply to any Scripture bombing posts. Please limit the verses you post to around 3-5 verses. I would also hope that you will prayerfully consider what I post before you reply. Seek understanding first, then, if you see no truth in what I wrote, give your refutation. All too often people just blindly post their proof texts without even considering the alternate view being presented.

I will begin with Proverbs 30:4;

"Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou can tell?"​

Besides teaching us that the Creator has a name, this verse also teaches us that the Creator is not His son. The Creator has "established all the ends of the earth," not the son. This is in direct contradiction to those who teach that Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ), the Son, is the Creator.

To back this up, I appeal to Isaiah 44:24;

"Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" (Isaiah 44:24)​

This verse leaves no room for co-creators or a Creator other than YHWH.

I know you have your verses that seem to say the Son created and you are welcome to post them later. First, I ask that you address only these two verses and how the Son fits in as the Creator. Then we can move on to other verses.

Hi GP, it seems to me that the finger that drew on the ground before the angry mob in John 8 belonged to the same Person who wrote the 10 Commandments on two tablets of stone for Moses on top of Mt. Sinai.

St. John also indicates that it was the pre-incarnate Son of God whose robe filled the temple in Isaiah 6 .. see John 12:41.

Finally, when Jesus commanded us to baptize, He told us to do so in the ὄνομα [onoma] "name" (singular) of God. And that "singular" name of God is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​

YHWH is the name of "God", the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, not the Father only.

I have come to believe that ALL of the OT "physical" appearances of God were probably made be YHWH the Son. This would certainly help explain the meaning behind verses like John 1:18 that tell us plainly that "no one has seen God at anytime", except for "the only begotten God" who explained the Father to us.

Yours and His,
David

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus is the Creator. You are blaspheming God if you teach otherwise. How's that for keeping us on the subject?

You are entitled to your opinion and are welcome to address the two verses I cited. Since you believe "Jesus" is the Creator, then based on Isaiah 44:24 you must believe that YHWH is "Jesus". Correct?

 

[Dave G.]

I don't think in this life we will ever understand the full concept of the trinity, nor even each person of that trinity's full job description, so to speak. We only know how it works in relation to us as believers and that is vaguely knowing.. But three persons in one make up the God head and God created everything. What we do know or have been told in scripture is that when we get to heaven we will then know what He knows. I can't even imagine that because right now I could walk out of the house unsure if my car keys are really in my pocket or not, never mind understand the breadth and depth of God or one member of the trinity or who created what... With that said Jesus did say that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father. The three are directly linked continuously.

I think biblical scholars can argue till blue in the face talking about something that has so much to it ( God) they don't even scratch the surface of understanding God. Meanwhile what has been placed on my heart by Jesus Christ is not to get involved in rabbit trailing but look to Him in these times we live in. That came after 6 months of driving myself nuts over doctrine study. I listen well, so that is what I am doing now. Just to have faith and let things be revealed to me.

 

[gadar perets]

I believe that it is the Father who did the planning, the Son who was the Executive, and the Holy Spirit who did the actual work.

Then you are contradicting Isaiah 44:24 in which we are clearly told YHWH created alone, all by Himself. He did not have help from another "person".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jesus is the Creator. You are blaspheming God if you teach otherwise. How's that for keeping us on the subject?

Good debate and discussion involves kicking the ball and not the player.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Then you are contradicting Isaiah 44:24 in which we are clearly told YHWH created alone, all by Himself. He did not have help from another "person".

I understand that your comment is in terms of your own theology, which I will not show disrespect for you by starting an argument with you about it.

 

[St_Worm2]

the Son was not "the Word" (logos) before he was made flesh.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

--David

 

[gadar perets]

Hi GP, it seems to me that the finger that drew on the ground before the angry mob in John 8 belonged to the same Person who wrote the 10 Commandments on two tablets of stone for Moses on top of Mt. Sinai.

We are not taught that in Scripture.

St. John also indicates that it was the pre-incarnate Son of God whose robe filled the temple in Isaiah 6 .. see John 12:41.

I disagree. A superficial reading leads one to believe that the "his" and "him" of verse 41 refers to Yeshua and ties in with verse 37. For the sake of clarity these verses will be quoted with [brackets] designating the speaker.

John 12:37,38, "But though he [Yeshua] had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him [Yeshua]: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he [Isaiah] spoke, Lord, 'who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the YHWH been revealed?' (The underlined is a quote from Isaiah 53:1. The "arm of Yahweh" is Isaiah's reference to the Messiah).
​

The passage continues with verses 39-41;

"Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, 'He [YHWH] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I [YHWH] should heal them.' These things said Isaiah, when he [Isaiah] saw his [YHWH's] glory, and spake of him [YHWH]."
​

Verse 40 (underlined) is a quote from Isaiah 6:10. John is quoting a second passage from Isaiah to show why they could not believe on Yeshua; because YHWH blinded them. Verse 41 therefore, is referring to Isaiah 6:10, not Isaiah 53:1. In Isaiah 6:1-3 YHWH is seen in all His glory. That is the glory referred to in verse 41. It was not Yeshua's glory.

Finally, when Jesus commanded us to baptize, He told us to do so in the ὄνομα [onoma] "name" (singular) of God. And that "singular" name of God is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​

YHWH is the name of "God", the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, not the Father only.

YHWH is not the name of the Son.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.​

The Father is YHWH. The Son is Yeshua.

I have come to believe that ALL of the OT "physical" appearances of God were probably made be YHWH the Son. This would certainly help explain the meaning behind verses like John 1:18 that tell us plainly that "no one has seen God at anytime", except for "the only begotten God" who explained the Father to us.

Yours and His,
David

There is not one verse in Scripture that calls the Son "YHWH". Therefore, phrases like "YHWH the Son" are unscriptural.

 

[gadar perets]

I don't think in this life we will ever understand the full concept of the trinity, nor even each person of that trinity's full job description, so to speak. We only know how it works in relation to us as believers and that is vaguely knowing.. But three persons in one make up the God head and God created everything. What we do know or have been told in scripture is that when we get to heaven we will then know what He knows. I can't even imagine that because right now I could walk out of the house unsure if my car keys are really in my pocket or not, never mind understand the breadth and depth of God or one member of the trinity or who created what... With that said Jesus did say that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father. The three are directly linked continuously.

I think biblical scholars can argue till blue in the face talking about something that has so much to it ( God) they don't even scratch the surface of understanding God. Meanwhile what has been placed on my heart by Jesus Christ is not to get involved in rabbit trailing but look to Him in these times we live in. That came after 6 months of driving myself nuts over doctrine study. I listen well, so that is what I am doing now. Just to have faith and let things be revealed to me.

You are correct to look to him in these times we live in. We don't look to him as our Creator, but as the Savior our Creator appointed him to be.

 

[gadar perets]

I understand that your comment is in terms of your own theology, which I will not show disrespect for you by starting an argument with you about it.

Thanks for your respect, but I don't think you would be arguing with me by explaining how you harmonize Isaiah 44:24 with your belief that the Son had a hand in creation.