Who is choosing who?

FutureAndAHope

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Good Day, FAH

You seem to assert that that this is speaking about enlightenment you have no basis in the text to come to that conclusion.

I use the word enlightenment because Calvinism speaks of the blindness of the sinner. The "drawing" you speak of clearly, according to your doctrine of Calvinism, is enlightenment, drawing to visibility.

Then you further assert a reading of the text that is in no way supported by the words in the text
If you read John 14 without bias, the drawing of the Father occurs because He loves those who obey His word. That is why I add to the scriptures.
Just for fun of it I guess you really need to expand your context of Jn 14 and deal with those who (world) can not (inablity) just like Jn 6.

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Why is it the world cannot receive the Spirt of truth, but others can receive?

That is fairly clear in John 14 they are not obedient so receive no revelation. This is a common thought from Jesus. As we see in John 3.

Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
 
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fhansen

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Calvinism states that God chooses people for salvation before the creation of the world, and only the elect are saved. Today we wish to look at the following scripture used by Calvinism to support their case, and provide a rebuttal to its usage.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

The above scripture is used to say by a Calvinist that God chooses us (before creation) we don't choose him. But first before we discuss the passage we will look at where Jesus talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see here the order of receiving the Holy Spirit:

  1. Man obeys God
  2. God loves the one who obeys
  3. God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient
We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience, being willing to follow Jesus and His teachings. The primary work is faith (John 6:29). So we see man chooses God after God's offer of salvation is presented, it is an act of man's will (obedience).

So now let's return to the first scripture. It is not talking about man choosing God in the sense of salvation it is talking about who "appointed" who. Who ordained who.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice the frequency of the term, servant, and master. Jesus is saying "You did not ordain me (you are not the master), I ordained you (Jesus is the master). It is not talking about the order in which salvation occurs, it is talking about Lordship, and how even though He is Lord he calls them friends.
God desires none to perish. He chooses all, but not all respond to Him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Calvinism states that God chooses people for salvation before the creation of the world, and only the elect are saved. Today we wish to look at the following scripture used by Calvinism to support their case, and provide a rebuttal to its usage.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

The above scripture is used to say by a Calvinist that God chooses us (before creation) we don't choose him. But first before we discuss the passage we will look at where Jesus talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see here the order of receiving the Holy Spirit:

  1. Man obeys God
  2. God loves the one who obeys
  3. God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient
We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience, being willing to follow Jesus and His teachings. The primary work is faith (John 6:29). So we see man chooses God after God's offer of salvation is presented, it is an act of man's will (obedience).

So now let's return to the first scripture. It is not talking about man choosing God in the sense of salvation it is talking about who "appointed" who. Who ordained who.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice the frequency of the term, servant, and master. Jesus is saying "You did not ordain me (you are not the master), I ordained you (Jesus is the master). It is not talking about the order in which salvation occurs, it is talking about Lordship, and how even though He is Lord he calls them friends.
Yeah I’ve seen this verse used out of context by Calvinists many times when everyone knows that Jesus literally hand picked these men to be His disciples and spread the gospel. Not every Christian was chosen in the same way these men were. I certainly never have experienced Jesus appearing before me and giving me a special invitation like He did with Paul.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Good Day,

The universal inability of man does demand that an external force is needed to of come it.

If God does not... then man remains in His state of cannot... Unless GOD

Salvation is of the Lord!

In Him,

Bill
I disagree, this is a misunderstanding of Romans 8. Paul isn’t saying that a person cannot repent and believe if they are not setting their mind on the Spirit, he’s saying they can’t please God if they don’t set their mind on the Spirit. And here’s why I say this. Paul mentions this same subject in 1 Corinthians 2 and the reason he brings this up is because in Corinthians 3 he rebukes the Corinthians for still being fleshly because they are not setting their mind on the Spirit, their mind is still set on the flesh. But even tho they are still fleshly they are believers of the gospel. This is why I think Calvinists take Romans 8 farther than it was intended to be taken because if it was intended to be taken literally as Calvin’s teach, then the Corinthians Paul was writing to wouldn’t have been able to believe the gospel. But because they did believe the gospel and their mind was still set on the flesh and not the Spirit I must conclude that the Calvinist interpretation of that verse is inaccurate.
 
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