Who is choosing who?

[Jesus is YHWH]

I think you missed the part in 38 at the end where Peter says "For ALL whom the Lord our God will call".
even after all the lead in in the verse he still leaves it up to God to do the calling.

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him.........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father.

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But every man in his own order.................
This is the calling of God in the order He has predestined for each man. No man will come prior to the calling of the Father,
Which leaves the timing of salvation for each up to the Father.

Lean not to thine own understanding for My ways are higher than your ways...................

John 12:32- And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

The same word draw as in John 6:44.

Context is King !

 

[Samson2021]

We agree EVERYONE will be drawn to the Son in due time.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of TIMES he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ..................
NLT says it better. And this is the plan. At the right TIME He will bring everything under the authority of Christ- everything in heaven and on earth.

We are slowly perfected by the things we suffer from the hands of those who have not yet been called, just as Jesus was, thus making it necessary for the majority, for now, to be uncalled. That will change but not until the second death TIME.

 

[John Mullally]

I think you missed the part in 38 at the end where Peter says "For ALL whom the Lord our God will call".
even after all the lead in in the verse he still leaves it up to God to do the calling.

God calls all to repentance.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.​

​

God desires all people to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him.........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father.

John 6:44 speaks of OT saints being drawn by the Father to Jesus pre-Calvary. Post-Calvary Jesus draws all men to himself.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”​

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But every man in his own order.................
This is the calling of God in the order He has predestined for each man. No man will come prior to the calling of the Father,
Which leaves the timing of salvation for each up to the Father.

Adam is the parent of all who are born, and who suffer death as a consequence of their parent’s one act of unrighteousness, namely his disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Christ is the parent of all who are reborn, and who enjoy eternal life as a consequence of their parent’s one act of righteousness, namely His obedience at Calvary. Therefore, one must be reborn in Christ in order to have the promise of being made alive.

The conditions for salvation are set in His word. God is not going to force anyone to believe.

 

[Samson2021]

John 6:44 speaks of OT saints being drawn by the Father to Jesus pre-Calvary. Post-Calvary Jesus draws all men to himself.

Your opinion not mine. Jesus simply stated that NO MAN can come. He did not qualify that to pre or post crucifixion.

The Father draws and reveals the Son to the man then the Son reveals the Father unto whom He chooses to reveal Him to.

The conditions for salvation are set in His word. God is not going to force anyone to believe.

Again your interpretation, not mine as salvation is not conditional. Conditional would necessitate a work on our part.
Ye are saved by GRACE (unmerited favor) through FAITH which is not of ourselves as it, (FAITH) is the gift of God.
Thus God is the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus because God is the one who gave them the FAITH necessary to believe. Romans 3

I would add that at the general resurrection of the dead every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. At that time
everyone will know just who Jesus is and they will believe but not necessarily be saved yet, as they were not called during the first death period.
And all of this is the doing of the Father for He works ALL things after the counsel of His own will, ALL the works were finished before the
founding of the world including just when each is made AWARE OF THE JUSTIFICATION UNTO LIFE that was bought for them at Calvary.
Again, EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER. Forcing is the last thing I'd call it, it's more like an act of mercy to allow someone out of the slavery
of sin. We each must participate in knowing good and evil, some more good, some more evil, but still we all get some of both as this is necessary
to be like God who knows good and evil as He is the creator of both. Gen 3:22 Isiah 45:7

 

[John Mullally]

Your opinion not mine. Jesus simply stated that NO MAN can come. He did not qualify that to pre or post crucifixion.

The Father draws and reveals the Son to the man then the Son reveals the Father unto whom He chooses to reveal Him to.

In contrasting John 6:44 with John 12:32, we see that God's drawing changed post-Calvary. This should not be a shock as the New Covenant is initiated at the resurrection. The Great Commission was initiated at the start of the New Covenant. Pre-Calvary, God had to get Satan and the religious leaders to unwittingly crucify Christ (1 Corinthians 2:8). Post Calvary, Satan is defeated and some who crucified Christ are converted (Acts 2:36-37).

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Again your interpretation, not mine as salvation is not conditional. Conditional would necessitate a work on our part.Ye are saved by GRACE (unmerited favor) through FAITH which is not of ourselves as it, (FAITH) is the gift of God.
Thus God is the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus because God is the one who gave them the FAITH necessary to believe. Romans 3

Your understanding of salvation, faith, and grace relies on a particular and disputable interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9. Those terms (salvation, faith, and grace) are discussed multiple times in scripture. - you need to do better than that. The only clear case when faith is termed a gift from God is in Romans 12:3 where faith is dispersed to believers for the purpose of service to the rest of the body of Christ.

Romans 12:6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;​

Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God and we can all choose what we listen to.

Romans 10;17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

The pattern for salvation in Ephesians 1:13-14 is hear, believe, and sealed, not sealed, hear, and then believe.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​

God saves us apart from the works of the Law, and on the basis of His own purpose and grace. If one does not conflate man’s free choice to repent with God’s free choice to save the repentant, then this is not an issue that needs to be reconciled. Humbly admitting you need salvation is not equal to saving yourself. Confessing your sin, even if done freely, does not earn or merit forgiveness for that sin, otherwise, there would have been no need for the cross. God could have just forgiven Abraham of his sin debt because his faith merited it. Even though Abraham believed in God, he still had a debt that he could not pay. God graciously chose to pay that debt through the sacrifice of His Son, without which no one would be saved.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?​

Calvinists conflate Faith with Works. Per Galatians 3:2, we receive the Spirit by hearing with faith, and hence faith is our introduction to grace. However, from the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works. There is neither a discussion of regeneration occurring before faith nor a discussion of Irresistible Grace anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Your understanding of salvation, faith, and grace relies on a particular and disputable interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9. Those terms (salvation, faith, and grace) are discussed multiple times in scripture. - you need to do better than that. The only clear case when faith is termed a gift from God is in Romans 12:3 where faith is dispersed to believers for the purpose of service to the rest of the body of Christ.

Romans 12:6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;​

Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God and we can all choose what we listen to.

Romans 10;17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

The pattern for salvation in Ephesians 1:13-14 is hear, believe, and sealed, not sealed, hear, and then believe.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​

God saves us apart from the works of the Law, and on the basis of His own purpose and grace. If one does not conflate man’s free choice to repent with God’s free choice to save the repentant, then this is not an issue that needs to be reconciled. Humbly admitting you need salvation is not equal to saving yourself. Confessing your sin, even if done freely, does not earn or merit forgiveness for that sin, otherwise, there would have been no need for the cross. God could have just forgiven Abraham of his sin debt because his faith merited it. Even though Abraham believed in God, he still had a debt that he could not pay. God graciously chose to pay that debt through the sacrifice of His Son, without which no one would be saved.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?​

Calvinists conflate Faith with Works. Per Galatians 3:2, we receive the Spirit by hearing with faith, and hence faith is our introduction to grace. However, from the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works. There is no discussion of regeneration occurring before faith and there is discussion of Irresistible Grace in the Bible.

Correct outside of their own systematic faith becomes a work but in Calvinism it’s never a work. The thing is nowhere in Scripture is faith ever called a work so it’s nothing but a strawman argument.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I think you missed the part in 38 at the end where Peter says "For ALL whom the Lord our God will call".
even after all the lead in in the verse he still leaves it up to God to do the calling.

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him.........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father.

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But every man in his own order.................
This is the calling of God in the order He has predestined for each man. No man will come prior to the calling of the Father,
Which leaves the timing of salvation for each up to the Father.

Lean not to thine own understanding for My ways are higher than your ways...................

I ask you to look at "who" scripture says will be enlightened, or drawn.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The order of enlightenment:

1) God gives his command
2) We either obey or disobey
3) The obedient will be loved by God
4) The obedient will receive the manifestation of the Holy Spirit

There is a step that God takes, extending us grace, but then there is the step that we take to receive it, and follow God. Only those who receive and follow will be saved.

So your two scriptures when read in the light of scripture should say:

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him, [the father draws those who respond to God's word].........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father, [the father gives the spirit to the obedient, but not to the disobedient].

 

[Samson2021]

I ask you to look at "who" scripture says will be enlightened, or drawn.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The order of enlightenment:

1) God gives his command
2) We either obey or disobey
3) The obedient will be loved by God
4) The obedient will receive the manifestation of the Holy Spirit

There is a step that God takes, extending us grace, but then there is the step that we take to receive it, and follow God. Only those who receive and follow will be saved.

So your two scriptures when read in the light of scripture should say:

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him, [the father draws those who respond to God's word].........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father, [the father gives the spirit to the obedient, but not to the disobedient].

Changing the scripture to say what you want it to say is not really an acceptable way of making a point.
My main reason for posting is to simply say that eventually ALL of mankind will have the Son revealed to them and ALL will enter into spiritual
life for that is what was bought for them at the cross. Romans 5:18
Sure each will eventually bear their own cross as some of us do now, but as surely as Jesus is alive today ALL will be born again for that is the only way Death can be destroyed and it is the last enemy to be destroyed.
My question to you would be 2 fold. Does anyone believe in the Son of God who died for their sins unless they are taught of the Father of their
need for forgiveness and given the faith necessary to believe in the finished work of the cross?
Secondly salvation is according to grace, not works, so it is still up to God to ELECT whom so ever He will to believe in His Son and most in this
dispensation will be left out similar to the Old Testament people who of course lived prior to salvation being made available. That said is their
any righteousness on our part that plays a part of our own initial salvation process or is it completely according to Gods grace? It can't be a
little of both!
Some have been appointed to stumble at the word, just as some have been elected to the FIRST group to enter into the new life purchased by
the blood of Jesus. These both are choices of the Father. He works all things according to the counsel of His own will.

If one takes any credit for his own salvation he's fooling himself and stands partially on his own righteousness (self righteousness) whether
1% or 10% it still blinds him to the truth. As Paul would say "not having mine own righteousness...but the righteousness which is of God by faith.
This issue of self righteousness is why the Lord tells us to anoint our eyes with salve that we may see in Revelation 3:18, you will remain blind to the higher things of God until you overcome self righteousness and stand only on the Righteousness that comes from God.
After all Jesus did say seek ye FIRST the KINGDOM OF GOD AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and ALL these things shall be added unto you.
Removing any appearance of self righteousness removes the blinders that inhibit your own spiritual progress.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

My main reason for posting is to simply say that eventually ALL of mankind will have the Son revealed to them and ALL will enter into spiritual
life for that is what was bought for them at the cross. Romans 5:18

Jesus spoke of hell, and people being there. Not everyone will be saved. After describing the torments of hell, Jesus said:

Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

No one who goes to hell will return.

 

[anetazo]

Calvinist is irrelevant. You either believe God's word or you dont. You either have faith or you dont. In first samuel. God was angry with Eli high priest two sons. These two worthless men were seducing women and abusing the priesthood. God demands obedience and Eli two sons were offering strange fire. They died. Samuel means dedicated. Samuel is one of God's Elect. Romans chapter 8 and first Peter chapter 1, God's Election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. The position for Elect can't be volunteered for. Psalm chapter 49, many shall never see the light. Those with free will have to wait until millennium is over to have access to Jesus. In the flesh, you need holy spirit to guide you to God's kingdom. Corinthians chapter 2, many people have spirit of stupor. Gods Elect have holy spirit. Those with free will have to wait until millennium is over to run up to Jesus. Some people have spirit of slumber and won't understand this.

 

[Samson2021]

Jesus spoke of hell, and people being there. Not everyone will be saved. After describing the torments of hell, Jesus said:

Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

No one who goes to hell will return.

Gehenna actually means the grave. The grave which is also an enemy of Christ is also destroyed. That occurs when no one can be found in one.
If you will look at what is thrown into the lake of fire at the general resurrection you will find governments (the beast), the false prophet
(religions) the grave ( no need for that unless people who are there will die a second time), death (thus the need for the grave) and satan
along with his minions of unclean spirits. Now what of the above is not present with us today? The second death is a dispensation of time wherein a second crop will be perfected from the seed of the first crop who have been perfected at the beginning of the kingdom reign.
Read Isaiah 59:21 and see if you can see what will be! Not all manna in the word of God is available to just anyone, but rather to he who
has earned the right too see it for it is HIDDEN from the eyes of those who have not overcome. Rev 2:17

 

[BBAS 64]

I ask you to look at "who" scripture says will be enlightened, or drawn.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The order of enlightenment:

1) God gives his command
2) We either obey or disobey
3) The obedient will be loved by God
4) The obedient will receive the manifestation of the Holy Spirit

There is a step that God takes, extending us grace, but then there is the step that we take to receive it, and follow God. Only those who receive and follow will be saved.

So your two scriptures when read in the light of scripture should say:

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him, [the father draws those who respond to God's word].........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father, [the father gives the spirit to the obedient, but not to the disobedient].

Good day, FAH

I would like to have the source that states that a valid translation of the Greek word "drawn" is enlightenment.

Once you can provide that then we can look at some of your other baseless assertions.

The Drawing of the Father is needed to overcome the utter inability of man "to come" no man can unless God....(does something)

Thayer Definition:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Part of Speech: verb

In Him,

Bill

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good day, FAH

I would like to have the source that states that a valid translation of the Greek word "drawn" is enlightenment.

Once you can provide that then we can look at some of your other baseless assertions.

The Drawing of the Father is needed to overcome the utter inability of man "to come" no man can unless God....(does something)

Thayer Definition:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Part of Speech: verb

In Him,

Bill

There is no need for Greek in this instance. The fact is the following scripture shows the order, the way in which God grants salvation. The drawing of the Father is after we accept His word.


John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The drawing of the Father is after we take steps of obedience to what He has revealed.

1) God reveals His word, even the word of faith
2) IF we respond in obedience
3) THEN God will love us
4) Finally God manifests, shows Himself, draws us

 

[BBAS 64]

There is no need for Greek in this instance. The fact is the following scripture shows the order, the way in which God grants salvation. The drawing of the Father is after we accept His word.


John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The drawing of the Father is after we take steps of obedience to what He has revealed.

1) God reveals His word, even the word of faith
2) IF we respond in obedience
3) THEN God will love us
4) Finally God manifests, shows Himself, draws us

Good day, FAH

That is true and as I suspected the word does not mean Enlightened, so the text is not talking about Enlightenment.

What you have here is a classic error of eisegesis, thanks for the example.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Samson2021]

The ELECT are called the ELECT because GOD chose them before the founding of the world to be the first fruits. The FIRST crop!

The idea that man is actually choosing God is ridiculous. A carnally minded human doesn't choose anything but that which benefits
him/her and believes itself to be god. That will not change until the Father shows them their error! Thus His calling/choosing at His timing!

 

[BBAS 64]

The ELECT are called the ELECT because GOD chose them before the founding of the world to be the first fruits. The FIRST crop!

The idea that man is actually choosing God is ridiculous. A carnally minded human doesn't choose anything but that which benefits
him/her and believes itself to be god. That will not change until the Father shows them their error! Thus His calling/choosing at His timing!

Good Day, Samson


They love darkness and hate light. They freely choice the darkness they love, because they love it.

They cannot/ will not choose light because they hate it.

A lion will never chose to eat grass, because he can not.

The Debate of the Devils advocate:

In Him,

Bill

 

[Samson2021]

Like I said until the Father calls them they will not come. The uncalled are the enemies of the called which we are to love just as our
Lord did. And this is by design. A perfecting of love under extreme negativity. And If I might add getting worse, especially with all the houses
of ill repute calling themselves churches, teaching doctrines of men, which praise God for an hour a week then go right back to their mire in the world the other 167. These people have no choice because they have been ordained to be what they are. Just as the Elect have been ordained
to be the Elect. As Paul would say "I am what I am by the grace of God." Can anyone say more???

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good day, FAH

That is true and as I suspected the word does not mean Enlightened, so the text is not talking about Enlightenment.

What you have here is a classic error of eisegesis, thanks for the example.

In Him,

Bill

What are you banging on about Greek words for? The text is plain in its explanation:

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There are two groups:

a) Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us
b) and not to the world?

Us and the world.

What is the difference between the world, and us?

a) the one to who God reveals Himself is obedient to God's word
b) The one who receives no manifestation is disobedient

In the passage the order of the manifestation is clear:

1) Obedience "He who has My commandments and keeps them", "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word"
2) God loves the obedient " will be loved by My Father", "My Father will love him"
3) God shows Himself to the obedient "manifest Myself to him", "We will come to him and make Our home with him"

God does not make His home with the disobedient, only the obedient. God does not manifest Himself to the disobedient, only the obedient.

Calvinism to which you subscribe puts this scripture on its head, saying "Man can not obey", "God manifests himself to a select group of men", and "only then do they obey". This one scripture alone would say you are wrong. But there are many others.

 

[BBAS 64]

What are you banging on about Greek words for? The text is plain in its explanation:

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There are two groups:

a) Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us
b) and not to the world?

Us and the world.

What is the difference between the world, and us?

a) the one to who God reveals Himself is obedient to God's word
b) The one who receives no manifestation is disobedient

In the passage the order of the manifestation is clear:

1) Obedience "He who has My commandments and keeps them", "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word"
2) God loves the obedient " will be loved by My Father", "My Father will love him"
3) God shows Himself to the obedient "manifest Myself to him", "We will come to him and make Our home with him"

God does not make His home with the disobedient, only the obedient. God does not manifest Himself to the disobedient, only the obedient.

Calvinism to which you subscribe puts this scripture on its head, saying "Man can not obey", "God manifests himself to a select group of men", and "only then do they obey". This one scripture alone would say you are wrong. But there are many others.

Good Day, FAH

@Samson2021 Quoted "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him"

You replied:

"I ask you to look at "who" scripture says will be enlightened, or drawn."

You seem to assert that that this is speaking about enlightenment you have no basis in the text to come to that conclusion.

Then you further assert a reading of the text that is in no way supported by the words in the text

So your two scriptures when read in the light of scripture should say:

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him, [the father draws those who respond to God's word].........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father, [the father gives the spirit to the obedient, but not to the disobedient]."

The scripture does not not say that which you hope it would say (you think it should say).

That is the classic error of eisegesis.

Just for fun of it I guess you really need to expand your context of Jn 14 and deal with those who (world) can not (inablity) just like Jn 6.

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Why is it the world cannot receive the Spirt of truth, but others can receive?

They cannot came to Christ and now they cannot receive the spirit if truth. I know you think they should be able to but so far the text does not support that assertion either.

In Jn14:21 "He who has my commandments"

Why do some have them and others do not?

In Him,

Bill

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good Day, FAH

@Samson2021 Quoted "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him"

You replied:



You seem to assert that that this is speaking about enlightenment you have no basis in the text to come to that conclusion.

Then you further assert a reading of the text that is in no way supported by the words in the text



The scripture does not not say that which you hope it would say (you think it should say).

That is the classic error of eisegesis.

Just for fun of it I guess you really need to expand your context of Jn 14 and deal with those who (world) can not (inablity) just like Jn 6.

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Why is it the world cannot receive the Spirt of truth, but others can receive?

They cannot came to Christ and now they cannot receive the spirit if truth. I know you think they should be able to but so far the text does not support that assertion either.

In Jn14:21 "He who has my commandments"

Why do some have them and others do not?

In Him,

Bill

Everyone has the commandments and CAN obey them.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

See again the order:


1) God shows His word, and commands us to turn from sin
2) They either obey leading to enlightenment
3) Or disobey leading to destruction

This shows it is man who is responsible for his own salvation.

It is just not logical that God would force blindness on people (just because He wants to) so that they perish, when He clearly says:

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'