Who is choosing who?

[FutureAndAHope]

Calvinism states that God chooses people for salvation before the creation of the world, and only the elect are saved. Today we wish to look at the following scripture used by Calvinism to support their case, and provide a rebuttal to its usage.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

The above scripture is used to say by a Calvinist that God chooses us (before creation) we don't choose him. But first before we discuss the passage we will look at where Jesus talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see here the order of receiving the Holy Spirit:

1. Man obeys God
2. God loves the one who obeys
3. God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient

We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience, being willing to follow Jesus and His teachings. The primary work is faith (John 6:29). So we see man chooses God after God's offer of salvation is presented, it is an act of man's will (obedience).

So now let's return to the first scripture. It is not talking about man choosing God in the sense of salvation it is talking about who "appointed" who. Who ordained who.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice the frequency of the term, servant, and master. Jesus is saying "You did not ordain me (you are not the master), I ordained you (Jesus is the master). It is not talking about the order in which salvation occurs, it is talking about Lordship, and how even though He is Lord he calls them friends.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience

One minister of mine pointed this very phrase out, and I understand what people mean when they say receive Christ, but the minister I think made a good point that we're not to merely receive Christ, we are to give ourselves over to Christ. One of the hallmarks of his teachings was that Christian life is give not get, so he always had problems with the saying we receive Christ and hammered the point that we give ourselves to Christ.


I don't believe that only the elect will have salvation; all of the world will have salvation, but God has a salvation plan in which the elect are first-fruits. These are the 144,000. But all mankind will have access to salvation, God's just not doing it all at once. First the first fruits and then the harvest.

Another verse to add to your post is this one:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[BBAS 64]

Calvinism states that God chooses people for salvation before the creation of the world, and only the elect are saved. Today we wish to look at the following scripture used by Calvinism to support their case, and provide a rebuttal to its usage.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

The above scripture is used to say by a Calvinist that God chooses us (before creation) we don't choose him. But first before we discuss the passage we will look at where Jesus talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see here the order of receiving the Holy Spirit:

1. Man obeys God
2. God loves the one who obeys
3. God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient

We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience, being willing to follow Jesus and His teachings. The primary work is faith (John 6:29). So we see man chooses God after God's offer of salvation is presented, it is an act of man's will (obedience).

So now let's return to the first scripture. It is not talking about man choosing God in the sense of salvation it is talking about who "appointed" who. Who ordained who.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice the frequency of the term, servant, and master. Jesus is saying "You did not ordain me (you are not the master), I ordained you (Jesus is the master). It is not talking about the order in which salvation occurs, it is talking about Lordship, and how even though He is Lord he calls them friends.

Good Day,

Reception of the Holy Spirt is the result of the work of God in putting... for the explicit purpose of obeying of which He is the primary effective cause:


36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Our obeying is a effect of what God does (verb)

Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Our believing is a result of the ordination by God as many as He ordained believed.

Salvation is of the Lord... He works and we are effected as he intends and purposes with out fail.

In Him

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

One minister of mine pointed this very phrase out, and I understand what people mean when they say receive Christ, but the minister I think made a good point that we're not to merely receive Christ, we are to give ourselves over to Christ. One of the hallmarks of his teachings was that Christian life is give not get, so he always had problems with the saying we receive Christ and hammered the point that we give ourselves to Christ.


I don't believe that only the elect will have salvation; all of the world will have salvation, but God has a salvation plan in which the elect are first-fruits. These are the 144,000. But all mankind will have access to salvation, God's just not doing it all at once. First the first fruits and then the harvest.

Another verse to add to your post is this one:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Good Day,

The universal inability of man does demand that an external force is needed to of come it.

If God does not... then man remains in His state of cannot... Unless GOD

Salvation is of the Lord!

In Him,

Bill

 

[fhansen]

Calvinism states that God chooses people for salvation before the creation of the world, and only the elect are saved. Today we wish to look at the following scripture used by Calvinism to support their case, and provide a rebuttal to its usage.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

The above scripture is used to say by a Calvinist that God chooses us (before creation) we don't choose him. But first before we discuss the passage we will look at where Jesus talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see here the order of receiving the Holy Spirit:

1. Man obeys God
2. God loves the one who obeys
3. God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient

We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience, being willing to follow Jesus and His teachings. The primary work is faith (John 6:29). So we see man chooses God after God's offer of salvation is presented, it is an act of man's will (obedience).

So now let's return to the first scripture. It is not talking about man choosing God in the sense of salvation it is talking about who "appointed" who. Who ordained who.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice the frequency of the term, servant, and master. Jesus is saying "You did not ordain me (you are not the master), I ordained you (Jesus is the master). It is not talking about the order in which salvation occurs, it is talking about Lordship, and how even though He is Lord he calls them friends.

In the order of salvation, grace precedes all. We may resist it; we may or may not respond, but without grace there’s nothing to respond to. He first knocks, He first calls; we may or may not answer.

 

[Dah'veed]

Good Day,
The universal inability of man does demand that an external force is needed to of come it.
If God does not... then man remains in His state of cannot... Unless GOD
Salvation is of the Lord!
In Him,
Bill

The way of the Lord is strength for the upright; Prov 10:29
Now I know that the Lord saves his anointed one; from his heavenly sanctuary; Ps 20:6 Heb 9:11
The Lord is the strength of his people; Ps 28:8 The Lord blesses his people with peace. Ps 29:11
Abraham did not waver through unbelief, but was strengthened; Rom 4:20
The Lord is faithful to strengthen and shield you; 2 Thess 3:3
If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 4:11

 

[Samson2021]

I don't believe that only the elect will have salvation; all of the world will have salvation, but God has a salvation plan in which the elect are first-fruits. These are the 144,000. But all mankind will have access to salvation, God's just not doing it all at once. First the first fruits and then the harvest.

See if this helps expound on your correct understanding.

Isaiah 59:21 As for Me this is My covenant with them saith the LORD, MY SPIRIT THAT IS UPON THEE, and MY WORDS WHICH I HAVE PUT
IN THY MOUTH, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Isaiah 61:1 The SPIRIT OF THE LORD GOD IS UPON ME................
Luke 4:18-21 (Jesus reading the verse and telling them that 61:1 was fulfilled, in their ears, that day)

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, when ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, AND THAT I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; BUT AS MY FATHER HATH TAUGHT ME, I SPEAK THESE THINGS.

I hope it's clear in 21 that the Father is speaking to Jesus and commenting on the seed (spiritual) of Jesus, and the seed (spiritual) of
Jesus' initial seed, the 2nd crop if you will. And the covenant He has made with them.
Jesus was the first to be perfected, by the things He suffered, and is considered the overcoming seed of the Father who fell into the ground and died and has brought forth much fruit. That fruit will eventually be perfected and in the same fashion have fruit of their own.

He who is joined unto the LORD is ONE SPIRIT, this includes Jesus as well as us who are all joined by the Holy Spirit. As we are perfected
Jesus tells us that when that day comes NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE UNTO US. Matt 17:20 (The perfecting of our faith)

He has been passing along, in seed form, a part of Himself (Gal 4:6) to each of those who have received the Holy Ghost, and being joined in spirit we are to overcome the world just as He did. Once perfected the same giving of the same overcoming spirit in us will allow the next crop to
overcome and eventually be perfected. It's hard to fathom but it is there. A pearl hidden within the pages.

The salvation of all was accomplished at the cross, it's just a matter of time until All are called for they have been justified unto life by that
one act of righteousness. Rom 5:18
The problem is that the perfecting involves suffering imposed upon the called by those whom they love, and trust.
This requires the unregenerate to remain blinded until their appointed time at which they will begin their overcoming unto sonship.

In the dispensation of the fullness of TIME(S) He might gather together in one ALL things in Christ............. Eph 1:10 The key word
here is TIMES, we are in the first death time now, the second death TIME is yet to come. Therefore 2 different times at a minimum.
And ALL things will be reconciled unto the Father once the TIMES have been fulfilled!!

Death is the last enemy to be destroyed and that can only happen once everyone has entered into life which was promised before
the world began. Titus 1:2

 

[Foghorn]

Calvinism states that God chooses people for salvation before the creation of the world, and only the elect are saved. Today we wish to look at the following scripture used by Calvinism to support their case, and provide a rebuttal to its usage.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

The above scripture is used to say by a Calvinist that God chooses us (before creation) we don't choose him. But first before we discuss the passage we will look at where Jesus talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see here the order of receiving the Holy Spirit:

1. Man obeys God
2. God loves the one who obeys
3. God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient

We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience, being willing to follow Jesus and His teachings. The primary work is faith (John 6:29). So we see man chooses God after God's offer of salvation is presented, it is an act of man's will (obedience).

So now let's return to the first scripture. It is not talking about man choosing God in the sense of salvation it is talking about who "appointed" who. Who ordained who.

Joh 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice the frequency of the term, servant, and master. Jesus is saying "You did not ordain me (you are not the master), I ordained you (Jesus is the master). It is not talking about the order in which salvation occurs, it is talking about Lordship, and how even though He is Lord he calls them friends.

Your teaching a system of works. God rewards one for being good and obedient. Nope!

 

[John Mullally]

Your teaching a system of works. God rewards one for being good and obedient. Nope!

We receive the Spirit by hearing with faith, and hence faith is our introduction to grace. True faith will produce works (James 2:17-26), like obedience to Christ.

Romans 5:1-2: “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”​

Galatians 3:2: “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”​

Faith is not a tangible object, such as the sun and rain which God provided to nourish life on earth. Faith (or trust) in God is an act of the will, describing an action between two agents. If the agency of man is absorbed under “Monergism,” then it is no longer faith or trust being displayed, but instead an action that God does to Himself through another agent. Faith and trust in God requires willing human consent, or else it’s no longer faith and trust that we are talking about.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We receive the Spirit by hearing with faith, and hence faith is our introduction to grace. True faith will produce works (James 2:17-26), like obedience to Christ.

Romans 5:1-2: “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”​

Galatians 3:2: “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”​

Faith is not a tangible object, such as the sun and rain which God provided to nourish life on earth. Faith (or trust) in God is an act of the will, describing an action between two agents. If the agency of man is absorbed under “Monergism,” then it is no longer faith or trust being displayed, but instead an action that God does to Himself through another agent. Faith and trust in God requires willing human consent, or else it’s no longer faith and trust that we are talking about.

If faith is the mere action of man towards God, it can not be salvific. We are not up to that job. Only God can do that, and that, in us, by the Spirit of God.

And as for your usual, "Salvation is the gift of God, faith is not.", again, Eph 2:8 grammatically shows that it IS the gift of God, when it says that Salvation is by grace through faith. If Salvation is the gift, then, logically, so is the faith which resulted in salvation.

 

[John Mullally]

If faith is the mere action of man towards God, it can not be salvific. We are not up to that job. Only God can do that, and that, in us, by the Spirit of God.

And as for your usual, "Salvation is the gift of God, faith is not.", again, Eph 2:8 grammatically shows that it IS the gift of God, when it says that Salvation is by grace through faith. If Salvation is the gift, then, logically, so is the faith which resulted in salvation.

On Pentecost, Peter promises salvation (i.e. forgiveness of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38-39) in response to Peter's presentation of the Gospel message. Repentance is an act of faith. In Acts 2, Peter pleads with his audience and goes so far as to say "save yourselves" - if man's will is not involved Peter's pleading is unnecessary and misleading.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

I don't agree with your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9 and one can search the internet and find many lengthy arguments that dispute the interpretation of that particular passage - so I am not going to spend time on that. Faith is mentioned frequently in the NT and Jesus demanded it of others when He walked the earth. Why would Jesus demand it of others if God is controlling who has it? That would be unjust. The only scripture that clearly associates faith with being a gift from God is Romans 12:3-8 which associates service gifts, (like prophesy which is Paul's example) given to particular believers with being given faith for that particular service gift.

 

[Mark Quayle]

On Pentecost, Peter promises salvation (i.e. forgiveness of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38-39) in response to Peter's presentation of the Gospel message. Repentance is an act of faith. In Acts 2, Peter pleads with his audience and goes so far as to say "save yourselves" - if man's will is not involved Peter's pleading is unnecessary and misleading.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

As you have doubtless heard before, it doesn't work like that. The fact that our hearts and minds are changed first (born again), doesn't mean that God can work how he pleases (EDIT: EVEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT I MEANT TO SAY THERE, BUT THAT WASN'T IT! GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE PLEASES!). Some people find they have come to love the Lord, others find themselves needing convinced, others do so for different reasons. What I have found is, "We do so because it is so."

Even my Arminianistic family (from my earlier years) do admit to a different Acts 2 "gift of the Holy Spirit": There is the "Indwelling", but then, again, there is the "Filling". But I wouldn't know how a Pelagian explains it, unless it advances his thesis to claim that Acts 2 is only an example of the same indwelling as produces regeneration. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you don't even believe in the Arminian claim of "Prevenient Grace."

By the way, that is a misquote, when you characterized "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation" as, "save yourselves", particularly in the context of Soteriology. ...Just saying. The notion that a fallen human at enmity with God is able to save himself is directly opposed to not only Romans 8 and other such places, but also directly opposed to the well-known passages such as John 1 ("...not by the will of man, but of God") and Ephesians 2 ("Salvation is by grace through faith, and that, not of yourselves —it is the gift of God..."

I don't agree with your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9 and one can search the internet and find many lengthy arguments that dispute the interpretation of that particular passage - so I am not going to spend time on that. Faith is mentioned frequently in the NT and Jesus demanded it of others when He walked the earth. Why would Jesus demand it of others if God is controlling who has it? That would be unjust. The only scripture that clearly associates faith with being a gift from God is Romans 12:3-8 which associates service gifts, (like prophesy which is Paul's example) given to particular believers with being given faith for that particular service gift.

Yes, I know you don't agree with my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9. That's why I brought it up and the logic against the way you have repeatedly tried to defeat it. (You are at least consistent —I will give you that.) The fact that there are several different ways to look at it doesn't make them each as good as the next way. Plain language use prevails: If the salvation is entirely a gift, then what brings it about is also that gift. My explanation must've been a good one, because this is the first time I have heard you back off of an opportunity to posit your explanation...

The notion that the command implies the ability to obey is also illogical. If someone produces works in keeping with obedience, and another produces works in keeping with rebellion, guess what happens! The why they produce it is irrelevant to the question of what they produce. God commands all men everywhere to repent. But they don't, do they! You can't explain why, expect by the illogical 'causation by chance'. Yes, THAT is what your notion of "free will" boils down to, where differences between one thing and another somehow happen completely in a vacuum.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

As you have doubtless heard before, it doesn't work like that. The fact that our hearts and minds are changed first (born again), doesn't mean that God can work how he pleases. Some people find they have come to love the Lord, others find themselves needing convinced, others do so for different reasons. What I have found is, "We do so because it is so."

Even my Arminianistic family (from my earlier years) do admit to a different Acts 2 "gift of the Holy Spirit": There is the "Indwelling", but then, again, there is the "Filling". But I wouldn't know how a Pelagian explains it, unless it advances his thesis to claim that Acts 2 is only an example of the same indwelling as produces regeneration. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you don't even believe in the Arminian claim of "Prevenient Grace."

By the way, that is a misquote, when you characterized "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation" as, "save yourselves", particularly in the context of Soteriology. ...Just saying. The notion that a fallen human at enmity with God is able to save himself is directly opposed to not only Romans 8 and other such places, but also directly opposed to the well-known passages such as John 1 ("...not by the will of man, but of God") and Ephesians 2 ("Salvation is by grace through faith, and that, not of yourselves —it is the gift of God..."

Yes, I know you don't agree with my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9. That's why I brought it up and the logic against the way you have repeatedly tried to defeat it. (You are at least consistent —I will give you that.) The fact that there are several different ways to look at it doesn't make them each as good as the next way. Plain language use prevails: If the salvation is entirely a gift, then what brings it about is also that gift. My explanation must've been a good one, because this is the first time I have heard you back off of an opportunity to posit your explanation...

The notion that the command implies the ability to obey is also illogical. If someone produces works in keeping with obedience, and another produces works in keeping with rebellion, guess what happens! The why they produce it is irrelevant to the question of what they produce. God commands all men everywhere to repent. But they don't, do they! You can't explain why, expect by the illogical 'causation by chance'. Yes, THAT is what your notion of "free will" boils down to, where differences between one thing and another somehow happen completely in a vacuum.

Mark do kids have the ability to obey their parents . Do adults have the ability to do their jobs ethically and practically. I say command does imply ability and I think to say otherwise is a misnomer.

I just had this discussion with some men in our discipleship group. AA has non believes that give up their sinful addiction of alcohol and drug addicts the same .

 

[John Mullally]

As you have doubtless heard before, it doesn't work like that. The fact that our hearts and minds are changed first (born again), doesn't mean that God can work how he pleases. Some people find they have come to love the Lord, others find themselves needing convinced, others do so for different reasons. What I have found is, "We do so because it is so."

Even my Arminianistic family (from my earlier years) do admit to a different Acts 2 "gift of the Holy Spirit": There is the "Indwelling", but then, again, there is the "Filling". But I wouldn't know how a Pelagian explains it, unless it advances his thesis to claim that Acts 2 is only an example of the same indwelling as produces regeneration. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you don't even believe in the Arminian claim of "Prevenient Grace."

Peter was promising "forgiveness of sins" and "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit", and you can't have either one of those if you are not saved. Thus Peter was promising salvation.

The Bible describes being "born again" which some term regeneration. Some (mainly Calvinists and Lutherans) argue for regeneration as being pre-faith. But I don't know of any scripture that expressly says that regeneration occurs pre-faith. Just prior of Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul describes the order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13-14. Notice the order of salvation (1) hear the Gospel, (2) believe the Gospel, and (3) be marked in him by being sealed by the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of a separate step of pre-faith regeneration - based upon the text, I am convinced that regeneration occurs when one is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​

By the way, that is a misquote, when you characterized "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation" as, "save yourselves", particularly in the context of Soteriology. ...Just saying. The notion that a fallen human at enmity with God is able to save himself is directly opposed to not only Romans 8 and other such places, but also directly opposed to the well-known passages such as John 1 ("...not by the will of man, but of God") and Ephesians 2 ("Salvation is by grace through faith, and that, not of yourselves —it is the gift of God..."

It is not inappropriate to quote someone without stating everything they say as long as the point comes across. What do you think the importance of from this corrupt generation is? What besides salvation could that phrase be talking about? Do you think that those who are not saved from this corrupt generation inherit eternal life? Nit picky.

"salvation is not by the will of man" in the sense that God sets the terms. Just before Jesus ascended, He set the terms for salvation in Mark 16:15-16. If Jesus did not want people to know they are saved by faith and baptism, He would not have said those words. We can take HIm at His word.

Yes, I know you don't agree with my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9. That's why I brought it up and the logic against the way you have repeatedly tried to defeat it. (You are at least consistent —I will give you that.) The fact that there are several different ways to look at it doesn't make them each as good as the next way. Plain language use prevails: If the salvation is entirely a gift, then what brings it about is also that gift. My explanation must've been a good one, because this is the first time I have heard you back off of an opportunity to posit your explanation...

William Lane Craig speaks on Ephesians 2:8-9 - so enjoy. Is Faith A Gift From God or Something We Produce? | Reasonable Faith

The notion that the command implies the ability to obey is also illogical. If someone produces works in keeping with obedience, and another produces works in keeping with rebellion, guess what happens! The why they produce it is irrelevant to the question of what they produce. God commands all men everywhere to repent. But they don't, do they! You can't explain why, expect by the illogical 'causation by chance'. Yes, THAT is what your notion of "free will" boils down to, where differences between one thing and another somehow happen completely in a vacuum.

In Genesis chapter 4, God asked Cain why he was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” 8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.​

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark do kids have the ability to obey their parents . Do adults have the ability to do their jobs ethically and practically. I say command does imply ability and I think to say otherwise is a misnomer.

I just had this discussion with some men in our discipleship group. AA has non believes that give up their sinful addiction of alcohol and drug addicts the same .

Do kids' parents create, own, them? We can all, even the lost, do good things, and obey commands. The point of 'Total Depravity' is, (one way to put it), that regardless of what one who is lost does, whether intended for good or not, is done in rebellion to God.

The way I put it is that obedience is more than compliance. The mind of flesh is unable to submit to God's law.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Peter was promising "forgiveness of sins" and "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit", and you can't have either one of those if you are not saved. Thus Peter was promising salvation.

The Bible describes being "born again" which some term regeneration. Some (mainly Calvinists and Lutherans) argue for regeneration as being pre-faith. But I don't know of any scripture that expressly says that regeneration occurs pre-faith. Just prior of Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul describes the order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13-14. Notice the order of salvation (1) hear the Gospel, (2) believe the Gospel, and (3) be marked in him by being sealed by the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of a separate step of pre-faith regeneration - based upon the text, I am convinced that regeneration occurs when one is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

I frankly think that it happened then and there, but God can do as he pleases. The plain fact is that logically, causally, the 'mind of flesh' must be changed by God before faith is produced, and man is not capable of producing what is needed there, apart from God doing it in him. Time sequence is irrelevant.

You can quote someone without stating everything they say. What do you think the importance of from this generation? What besides salvation could that phrase be talking about?

"salvation is not by the will of man" in the sense that God sets the terms. Just before Jesus ascended, He set the terms for salvation in Mark 16:15-16. If Jesus did not want people to know they are saved by faith and baptism, He would not have said those words. We can take HIm at His word.

William Lane Craig speaks on Ephesians 2:8-9 - so enjoy. Is Faith A Gift From God or Something We Produce? | Reasonable Faith

Sorry. I don't care what WLC thinks. It doesn't help your argument.

In Genesis chapter 4, God asked Cain why he was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” 8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.

What in the world makes you think that I think we aren't "our own persons"? Of course we can all act in a positive manner —it is self-evident. But it is not submission to God, if one is not regenerated. Sin is at the core, until the Spirit of God takes up residence.

 

[John Mullally]

I frankly think that it happened then and there, but God can do as he pleases.

Arguments from scripture are commonly met with "God does what He pleases" or "God is Sovereign" by Calvinists. That pretty much sums up most of Calvinism. Calvin takes it to an extreme as he says that God decrees all events from the foundation of the world - including man's every thought and action.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

The plain fact is that logically, causally, the 'mind of flesh' must be changed by God before faith is produced, and man is not capable of producing what is needed there, apart from God doing it in him. Time sequence is irrelevant.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 does not agree with what you are say as God promises to change men (i.e. give them a new heart and a new spirit) if they repent.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!​

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. "Repent! Turn away...Rid yourselves..."
2. "...get a new heart and a new spirit."

Verse 32 makes it more simple:

1. "Repent and ..."
2. "... live!"

What in the world makes you think that I think we aren't "our own persons"? Of course we can all act in a positive manner —it is self-evident. But it is not submission to God, if one is not regenerated. Sin is at the core, until the Spirit of God takes up residence.

The type of free-will that Calvinists advocate is one in which man’s self-determinations (think about that) are “never” the “ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices.” So, think of any action, and according to Calvinism, you are not the ultimate and decisive self-determiner of the choice and preference to perform that action—God is. That is the type of non-free free-will that Calvinists advocate, also termed “compatibilistic free-will,” meaning that an individual is free to perform only and precisely what is compatible with their predetermined nature.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"God does what He pleases" is Calvinists understanding of "God is Sovereign". And it pretty much sums up most of Calvinism. And per Calvin, God decreed man's every though and action.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
If it is really that simple, you should be able to point to scriptures and there should be no need to construct an intermediate man-made theological framework, like TULIP to aid people in understanding doctrine.

TULIP? That's just the Reformed answer to Arminianism's 5 points.

As for Scriptures, ha! if you were so inclined you could find them aplenty. But even though you oppose it, I'm finding it a bit odd that you can't find any verses that say that God does as he pleases, so that you can knock them down. But you can start with Genesis 1:1 and ask what we had to do with that, or whose council God sought, to help make up his mind how to produce the chance for the best outcome.

If man is incapable of doing what God commands, then why should God be angry when people give up and say they cannot comply?

Jeremiah 18:11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’” 13 Therefore this is what the Lord says: “Inquire among the nations: Who has ever heard anything like this? A most horrible thing has been done by Virgin Israel.Ezekiel 18:30-32 does not agree with what you are say as we see that God promises to change men (i.e. give them a new heart and a new spirit) if they repent.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. "Repent! Turn away...Rid yourselves..."
2. "...get a new heart and a new spirit."

Verse 32 makes it more simple:

1. "Repent and ..."
2. "... live!"

Interesting how the very verses you use to support your notions actually present the answer to your objections! They do as they do, deciding to follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. THAT is what they always do, but for the grace of God.

Do you suppose that man will repent if God does not change their heart? And to what degree or in what way do those 'repent' who reneg later on? Was it after all, true repentance? As I said before, the logical order of causation is simple. The temporal sequence is irrelevant.

Only God can cause 'new'.

The type of free-will that Calvinists advocate is one in which man’s self-determinations (think about that) are “never” the “ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices.” So, think of any action, and according to Calvinism, you are not the ultimate and decisive self-determiner of the choice and preference to perform that action—God is. That is the type of non-free free-will that Calvinists advocate, also termed “compatibilistic free-will,” meaning that an individual is free to perform only and precisely what is compatible with their predetermined nature.

Think about WHAT for a minute? I don't propose man is self-determining. That is a free-willer's construction. Self-determinism is what man has insisted on every since the Garden. But it is an illusion. But why would they not be decisive? God has determined that all things fall out precisely as they will, including your every choice. Have you so low an esteem of God that he is only another one of the denizens of this universe or of the omni? He is the cause of the omni (think about that).

But you want to lower him to our estate, where he is as subject to our whims as we are to his. He has no whims, but whims is ALL we've got, but for his work in us.

 

[John Mullally]

TULIP? That's just the Reformed answer to Arminianism's 5 points.

Not many non-Calvinist Evangelicals follow Arminius or Pelagius.

As for Scriptures, ha! if you were so inclined you could find them aplenty. But even though you oppose it, I'm finding it a bit odd that you can't find any verses that say that God does as he pleases, so that you can knock them down. But you can start with Genesis 1:1 and ask what we had to do with that, or whose council God sought, to help make up his mind how to produce the chance for the best outcome.

I don't believe that God pre-determines man's thoughts and actions. From scripture we see that God manipulates circumstances leading to the Exodus, leading to the Crucifixion, and in answer to prayer.

Many are too quick to water down what scripture teaches with a "God does whatever He wants". Or pronounce "if it be God's will" when scripture tells us His will on the topic.

They do as they do, deciding to follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. THAT is what they always do, but for the grace of God.

Not only is there no scripture that says that God regenerates man through Irresistible Grace in order for man to believe and be saved - there is no mention of Irresistible Grace in the Bible.

Just because man is sinful and does not seek after God, does not preclude man from responding to the Gospel prior to regeneration when Jesus is drawing (John 12:32) and the Holy Spirit is convicting.

1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the savior of all men and by that I take it that God has made provision for all men to be saved because from other scriptures we know many are not- that provision is received through faith (John 3:14-16). That is in line with 1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2 that say that Christ atoned for all men. You can lead a horse to water (provision), but you cannot make him drink (receive provision).

Do you suppose that man will repent if God does not change their heart? And to what degree or in what way do those 'repent' who reneg later on? Was it after all, true repentance? As I said before, the logical order of causation is simple. The temporal sequence is irrelevant.

Only God can cause 'new'.

The logical order of causation in Ezekiel 18:30-32 is man repents before God changes his nature (by giving him a new heart and a new spirit). Given that God changes man's nature in response to repentance in the OT, how is that Calvinists insist that the order is reversed in the NT? Did man become more evil in the NT?

Think about WHAT for a minute? I don't propose man is self-determining. That is a free-willer's construction. Self-determinism is what man has insisted on every since the Garden. But it is an illusion. But why would they not be decisive? God has determined that all things fall out precisely as they will, including your every choice. Have you so low an esteem of God that he is only another one of the denizens of this universe or of the omni? He is the cause of the omni (think about that).

But you want to lower him to our estate, where he is as subject to our whims as we are to his. He has no whims, but whims is ALL we've got, but for his work in us.

Different tact: If God determines every man's thought and action as Calvin asserts, then why in the OT does God frequently express disappointed by man's sin and failure? And why did Jesus marvel at the Centurion's and the Sidonian woman's faith?

Also if men are Totally Depraved and have no free will, why did God have to harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus?

 

[Samson2021]

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.

I think you missed the part in 38 at the end where Peter says "For ALL whom the Lord our God will call".
even after all the lead in in the verse he still leaves it up to God to do the calling.

John 6:44 No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him.........
John 6:65 ......Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of My Father.

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But every man in his own order.................
This is the calling of God in the order He has predestined for each man. No man will come prior to the calling of the Father,
Which leaves the timing of salvation for each up to the Father.

Lean not to thine own understanding for My ways are higher than your ways...................