You used an example of a father with his children, which is an example of "family". I fail to see how this example fits a conversation about Pharoah and God and their relationship to one another.
The bottom line is, who is to blame for Pharoah's hard-heart-ed-ness?
Whoever is to blame for it, sinned, did they not?
The bottom line is, did God sin?
I could be wrong, but I think most people see that Pharaoh already had a hard heart or the children of Israel would already have been free. IOW's just because it doesn't say Pharaoh's heart was already hard doesn't mean it is not implied by the historical evidence presented. Just a thought for what it's worth.Thanks for your thoughts brinny, here is something to chew on though..
We see the first time that the hardening of Pharaohs heart is mentioned, The very first time is in
Exodus 4:21, And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
First, we notice that God states His purpose and what will transpire before it ever happens.
Who would you say is the active/acting agent in the hardening based on what you see above?
Kind of like Romans 1:24-29? Sounds about right to me...sounds consistent with the text and the totality of scripture...a bit of both. I think sometimes we forget how much the HS works in our life to bring us to God in the first place. If that working that brought about our salvation is removed, couldn't we say that "God hardened our hearts" by not being at work to soften them?God was merely informing Moses that as a result of what God would do to Egypt that his actions will harden the resolve of Pharaoh toward the Israelites which is often what happens in these situations; it does not specifically say that God forced Pharaoh's heart to become hardened.
how I see it too.The plain answer is that Pharaoh first hardened his heart, and then God hardened his heart. God made that statement to Moses because He knows the end from the beginning. Pharaoh was given multiple opportunities to repent and relent, but he refused to accept them. Finally God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that there was no going back. God knew that Pharaoh would remain unrelenting.
I'm not sure I am following you here. From how I read the passages, God creates all of us, no problem. In that creation, He knows that some will end up in destruction and some in His glory, again, no problem. I'm not sure why that should be a problem, unless we are trying to use it to make some theology that doesn't fit with the totality of scripture. What am I missing? Why should this be a hard teaching and how is it a hard teaching?Don't sell your answer short. There is additional scripture outside of Exodus giving the answer of God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Romans 9:17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he[God] hardens whom he wants to harden.
This text contains a quote from Exodus that has already been noted in this thread. The purpose of Paul quoting is to add additional explanation on the doctrine of God's Sovereign Choice. To this Paul says:
19 One of you will say to me: Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will? 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, Why did you make me like this?[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Which contains an O.T. quote from Isaiah in two places:
Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,
You did not make me?
Can the pot say to the potter,
You know nothing?
Isaiah 45:9 Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
What are you making?
Does your work say,
The potter has no hands?
God need not explain his plan, but Paul does explain why God makes two different kinds of pots; one for mercy, one for destruction.
Rom 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathprepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory
This is not a quote but lines up exactly with Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaohs heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord. So the Israelites did this.
As if this was not enough, Paul in verses 25 through 29 quotes four more O.T. passages of God's Sovereign Choice.
To all that can not accept this clear word of God, you need to heed the warning of verse 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
My post was all scripture. It is not my thoughts you are trying to follow.I'm not sure I am following you here.
Glad there is no problem with scripture.From how I read the passages, God creates all of us, no problem.
The quoted text that you ignore is that God bore/formed/raised some for destruction. This was God's purpose. God is the potter, which serves as a very simple analogy. This is more than knowing. If this is a problem, talk to God about it. Scripture says we are all pots. Paul foreknew the argument that some would think this unjust. 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!In that creation, He knows that some will end up in destruction and some in His glory, again, no problem.
I'm not sure why that should be a problem, unless we are trying to use it to make some theology that doesn't fit with the totality of scripture. What am I missing? Why should this be a hard teaching and how is it a hard teaching?
okay...if you were not trying to make some point with your chosen passages, then explain how I supposedly missed the point....isn't it true that God knows everything, throughout time? Isn't it also true that He is the one who forms us in the womb? Wouldn't it then stand to reason that as He is forming us, He knows who will and who will not come to Him? Simple biblical understanding as per the totality of scripture, not just pulling one passage aside and trying to make some point that isn't there. Now, let's take it one step further....if He knows while forming us whom will and will not serve, what would be in opposition to His character of Love to use those that will not follow Him, to achieve HIs purpose of reaching those that will come? Hum....hum....hum....maybe you are the one who missed something. So you see, I didn't miss anything in the passage and I looked at the totality of scripture to discover the intent of the passage you present, in accordance with scriptures command to study the Word so that it can rightfully be divided....interesting isn't it, that your accusations of me are false but you don't really care about that false witness because your point isn't made if you take an honest approach to my comments. Oh, but wait, I am not allowed to point out to you that you misrepresented me, am I?My post was all scripture. It is not my thoughts you are trying to follow.
Glad there is no problem with scripture.
The quoted text that you ignore is that God bore/formed/raised some for destruction. This was God's purpose. God is the potter, which serves as a very simple analogy. This is more than knowing. If this is a problem, talk to God about it. Scripture says we are all pots. Paul foreknew the argument that some would think this unjust. 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
that wasn't what I said at all, and for you to misrepresent what I said in such a false manner is troubling.You question a post of scripture as possibly not agreeing with the totality of scripture. If you think something does not agree with the totality of scripture say it plainly. Don't just insinuate that if I "read" scripture differently than how you did, that it is against the totality of scripture.
see above....like I said, why should this be a hard teaching given the totality of scripture?And please provide scripture that explains the totality of it in regard to your position.
okay...if you were not trying to make some point with your chosen passages, then explain how I supposedly missed the point....isn't it true that God knows everything, throughout time? Isn't it also true that He is the one who forms us in the womb? Wouldn't it then stand to reason that as He is forming us, He knows who will and who will not come to Him? Simple biblical understanding as per the totality of scripture, not just pulling one passage aside and trying to make some point that isn't there. Now, let's take it one step further....if He knows while forming us whom will and will not serve, what would be in opposition to His character of Love to use those that will not follow Him, to achieve HIs purpose of reaching those that will come? Hum....hum....hum....maybe you are the one who missed something. So you see, I didn't miss anything in the passage and I looked at the totality of scripture to discover the intent of the passage you present, in accordance with scriptures command to study the Word so that it can rightfully be divided....interesting isn't it, that your accusations of me are false but you don't really care about that false witness because your point isn't made if you take an honest approach to my comments. Oh, but wait, I am not allowed to point out to you that you misrepresented me, am I? that wasn't what I said at all, and for you to misrepresent what I said in such a false manner is troubling.
see above....like I said, why should this be a hard teaching given the totality of scripture?
right...we don't have a choice, God forces us to believe, He forces us to do everything we do...He even forces us to sin, right? Right? Okay then, glad that is cleared up, sorry, I can't buy what you are trying to sell given the totality of scripture, but then again, that would be off topic to discuss this even further...We do not receive Him as Lord, we are not born again as a result of our will, past, present, or future time. We are born of His will, this salvation is not of ourselves it is God's gift.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 John 5
5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
right...we don't have a choice, God forces us to believe, He forces us to do everything we do...He even forces us to sin, right? Right? Okay then, glad that is cleared up, sorry, I can't buy what you are trying to sell given the totality of scripture, but then again, that would be off topic to discuss this even further...
If you study the scriptures carefully, you will see that we do have a choice, if we didn't, God wouldn't command us to do what He does, cause we don't have a choice anyway, so no reason to command or give laws or anything like that, in fact, if we believe what you are selling, there is no reason for scripture, no need to disciple anyone, no purpose to the law, no reason for Jesus to die, cause God forces us to everything we do anyway.
Now that that is cleared up, can we get back to what scripture really does tell us about the topic at hand, that it is some of both, that Pharaoh had a hardened heart, but God also hardened it further to bring about His purpose, much as we see in Romans 1; Psalms 81:12; Eph. 2:3...consistency of scripture....some of both....so let me ask everyone on this discussion this question...
Do you really believe in the depths of your heart that if Pharaoh had wanted to serve God and lead His people to the truth of the living God, God would have said, "NO, I'm still gonna harden your heart so that you won't come to me in sackcloth and ashes, in confession and repentance"?
Do you really believe in the depths of your heart that if Pharaoh had wanted to serve God and lead His people to the truth of the living God, God would have said, "NO, I'm still gonna harden your heart so that you won't come to me in sackcloth and ashes, in confession and repentance"?
at this point, I am beyond clueless as to what you think you want to argue or what you think your beef with me is, but it's getting out of hand really quickly...so either spill the beans about what your beef with me is, or move on like I suggested we do a long time ago. Cause if you disagree with me, you are saying God forces us to do everything we do, including but not limited to believing unto salvation, which I simply can't buy. I'm ready to move on, since you don't seem to be aware of anything going on and don't seem to be willing to find out.There is no forcing going on.
God simply makes us alive who were dead by His grace.
Once we are alive, we can hear Him, listening and learning and we are drawn by God to Christ.
Natural man is not able to hear God in this way, he does not recieve the things of God, nor can he know them as they are spiritually discerned and they are spiritually dead.
John 6
28 Then they said to Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
Very interesting what Jesus says. god's work is to make you believe in Him, and in this God is 100% successful.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me.
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life.
I asked a question, nothing more or less...no other motive, just a question about God forcing His will on man and God using His creation, all of it, to bring about His purpose...You really do need to get a grip before this gets out of control. In fact, the question was about your opinion, not about what would really have happened and it was directed at everyone here, not just you.Well your introducing something you can not know, going beyond the evidence, beyond the scriptures.
It just was not God's plan was it or it would have happened that way.
I asked a question, nothing more or less...no other motive, just a question about God forcing His will on man and God using His creation, all of it, to bring about His purpose...You really do need to get a grip before this gets out of control. In fact, the question was about your opinion, not about what would really have happened and it was directed at everyone here, not just you.
what are you even talking about????????????????????????????????? I didn't rage against anyone....in fact, you have been reading into what I said for several posts now, things that arent' there and trying to make an argument out of something not there.....seriously dude, get a grip before things get out of control on this thread. You are so bent on arguing you are flaming to try to get one, and I don't play that game.So why are you raging at me and without cause I might add?
I am the calm one seems to me.