Who got your Saved?? POLL

[AvgJoe]

Have you heard of the verse regarding God the Potter that can make one vessel for good and one for bad?

Yes, Romans 9:21-22.

But, Romans 9–11 is not a treatise on predestination or individual election. It is not saying that some people have not and never will have an opportunity to be saved. Rather, it is saying that God has the power and prerogative to choose the servants He will use to point the world to a salvation that comes not from works but from grace alone.

Many Old Testament prophecies (e.g. Isa. 2:1-5; 11:1-16; Jer. 23:5-8; 31:1- 14; Ezek. 36:22-38; Zech. 12–14) declare that Israel will one day recognize and accept her Messiah. She will experience God’s unparalleled blessing in her own land and be the spiritual center of a kingdom marked by international peace, civil righteousness, universal prosperity, and a world free from the ravages of the curse. To fulfill His promises to Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3), God has predetermined that in the last days He will use Israel to bring peace and happiness to the whole world.

For the last 2,000 years, however, God has been using believers in Christ to do what He originally chose Israel to do. In the first century, this willingness of God to use Gentile believers raised many questions. Had God broken His promise to use Israel as His chosen servant? How could He set aside the nation He had set apart for Himself?

In response to these questions, the apostle Paul wrote Romans 9–11 to Jewish countrymen, undoubtedly believers in Jesus, who were having a hard time with the idea that God had set Israel aside. After expressing his deep love for his Jewish brothers, Paul developed the theme of 9:6, “It is not as though God’s Word had failed.” He wanted his readers to know that God still had a future plan for the people through whom He had chosen to bless the whole world.

Understanding Paul’s purpose will help us to see that Romans 9–11 is not a treatise on predestination or individual election.

 

[AvgJoe]

Your really at odds then with the scripture since Christ says all God draws are saved, yet Christ says He draws all men and and obviously they are not all saved, so your understanding is really corrupt.
All God draws are saved, so Christ who is also God by the way, drawing all men simply means all Christ draws will be saved too. The ones drawn by Christ are the ones saved. All is just all who are drawn, not each and every single human person, WHAT HAVE ALL HEARD THE GOSPEL? obviously no, so then Christ accordingly is not drawing all men is He.

The God of the Bible declares repeatedly throughout His Word that He is not willing that anyone should perish but wills for “all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). Continually, and in the most urgent and solemn language possible, He calls upon all men to repent and to believe in His Son as the Savior of all men. Christ holds out His nail pierced hands and pleads, “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). This is a promise which all who labor and are heavy laden have every reason to believe is extended to them. Taking what the Bible says [literally], one would come to the conclusion that just as “all have sinned” (Romans 3:23), so all are offered deliverance from sin and its penalty through the gospel. To claim that “all” means only a select group called the elect does violence to the plain meaning of language and impugns the character of God; and it does this in order to force upon the Word of God a system of religion which cannot be derived from it.

Jesus calls out to whosoever is weary, burdened or thirsty, “Come unto me.” Our Lord repeatedly declares that whosoever would believe on Him will be saved. And there are many scriptures which, if the ordinary meaning of words can be accepted, offer salvation to the whole world and declare that God wants the whole world to be saved, that He gave His Son for the salvation of the whole world, that He is not willing that any should perish and that Christ died for the sins of all.

To annul this plain teaching of Scripture, Calvinism has boldly changed “world” to mean “elect”, in no fewer than twenty scriptures, “whosoever” and “all” into “elect” at least sixteen times each, and in addition, the phrase “every man” has been turned into “elect” six times and “everyone” into “elect” three times. In every instance, where these changes have been made, there is nothing in the text to justify “elect” as the meaning of the word for which it must be substituted. The change has been made for one reason only: to accommodate Calvinism!

For example, when Christ says He would draw “all men” to himself (John 12:32), the Calvinist must say, “The ‘all’ plainly refers to all of God’s elect.” Plainly? Only if one is a Calvinist.

 

[sdowney717]

The God of the Bible declares repeatedly throughout His Word that He is not willing that anyone should perish but wills for “all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). Continually, and in the most urgent and solemn language possible, He calls upon all men to repent and to believe in His Son as the Savior of all men. Christ holds out His nail pierced hands and pleads, “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). This is a promise which all who labor and are heavy laden have every reason to believe is extended to them. Taking what the Bible says [literally], one would come to the conclusion that just as “all have sinned” (Romans 3:23), so all are offered deliverance from sin and its penalty through the gospel. To claim that “all” means only a select group called the elect does violence to the plain meaning of language and impugns the character of God; and it does this in order to force upon the Word of God a system of religion which cannot be derived from it.

Jesus calls out to whosoever is weary, burdened or thirsty, “Come unto me.” Our Lord repeatedly declares that whosoever would believe on Him will be saved. And there are many scriptures which, if the ordinary meaning of words can be accepted, offer salvation to the whole world and declare that God wants the whole world to be saved, that He gave His Son for the salvation of the whole world, that He is not willing that any should perish and that Christ died for the sins of all.

To annul this plain teaching of Scripture, Calvinism has boldly changed “world” to mean “elect”, in no fewer than twenty scriptures, “whosoever” and “all” into “elect” at least sixteen times each, and in addition, the phrase “every man” has been turned into “elect” six times and “everyone” into “elect” three times. In every instance, where these changes have been made, there is nothing in the text to justify “elect” as the meaning of the word for which it must be substituted. The change has been made for one reason only: to accommodate Calvinism!

For example, when Christ says He would draw “all men” to himself (John 12:32), the Calvinist must say, “The ‘all’ plainly refers to all of God’s elect.” Plainly? Only if one is a Calvinist.

The only ones who do come are those God foreknew and therefore predestined, hand picked by God to be chosen vessels of His mercy, Romans 8:28-30.

Jesus here says 'he who comes to me', but then later on says all the Father gives to Him come to Christ and are saved. So the only ones who actually do respond positively are the ones God GIVES to Christ, as God must grant that they come to Christ or they will not come, and that is God's will who sent Christ. Scripture is clear the unsaved follow SATAN and not God and Christ, with their minds blinded by the devil and are persihing. So God must first make you born again, not of your own will for you to be enabled to receive Christ as God, otherwise you will remain Satans lackey, a slave of sin.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I understand this goes against what so many people have been taught, but it is the scriptural truth, if you can receive it. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

One reason people are resistant to the Holy Spirit's truths is you have an adversary the devil who troubles the church, one way is by using his false ministers captured by the devil to do his will employed as false teachers who as Peter said will be among you.

 

[tulipbee]

men are unable to make right decisions.

God makes the first move

 

[sdowney717]

Not even Christ's words in scripture are good enough evidence to convict some people of their unbelief in Him and God. How many worship a false Christ, Christ tells us many do and are deceived.

Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

So many will come to the judgement and complain to the true Christ of all the miracles and good things they did for Christ in their life, yet He will say to them He never knew them, which means they never knew the true Christ and then Christ will tell them to depart from Him you worker of evil.

Those people God never made them born again, those people were heavily deceived by Satan, they had a form of religion and were convinced they were on the right path..

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Jesus Paid it All

Elvina M. Hall (1865)

1 I hear the Savior say,
"Thy strength indeed is small,
Child of weakness, watch and pray,
Find in Me thine all in all."

Refrain:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

2 Lord, now indeed I find
Thy pow'r and Thine alone,
Can change the leper's spots
And melt the heart of stone. [Refrain]

3 For nothing good have I
Where-by Thy grace to claim;
I'll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv'ry's Lamb. [Refrain]

4 And when, before the throne,
I stand in Him complete,
"Jesus died my soul to save,"
My lips shall still repeat. [Refrain]

 

[AvgJoe]

The only ones who do come are those God foreknew and therefore predestined, hand picked by God to be chosen vessels of His mercy, Romans 8:28-30.

Jesus here says 'he who comes to me', but then later on says all the Father gives to Him come to Christ and are saved. So the only ones who actually do respond positively are the ones God GIVES to Christ, as God must grant that they come to Christ or they will not come, and that is God's will who sent Christ. Scripture is clear the unsaved follow SATAN and not God and Christ, with their minds blinded by the devil and are persihing. So God must first make you born again, not of your own will for you to be enabled to receive Christ as God, otherwise you will remain Satans lackey, a slave of sin.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I understand this goes against what so many people have been taught, but it is the scriptural truth, if you can receive it. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

One reason people are resistant to the Holy Spirit's truths is you have an adversary the devil who troubles the church, one way is by using his false ministers captured by the devil to do his will employed as false teachers who as Peter said will be among you.

John chapter 6...what is it's context, who is the audience and what what was going on at the time?

The audience is a bunch of unbelieving Israelites looking for free food (vs. 25-31) and the twelve apostles (vs. 70). What do we know about the Israelites of this day?

a. They had “become calloused…Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them” (Acts 28:27). They were not born calloused, but over time they had grown hardened in their religious self-righteousness which prevented them from hearing, seeing and responding to the revelation of God.

b. They are being ‘judicially hardened’ (or ‘cut off’ or ‘sent a spirit of stupor’) so as to seal them in their calloused condition. Why? To accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellion (crucifixion, ingrafting Gentiles into the church — Rom. 9-11).

c. Jesus is not attempting to “win them over” or have them come to faith in great numbers as we see in Acts 2 when Peter preaches. In fact, in support of God’s judicial hardening of Israel, we see Jesus actively instructing his apostles to not tell others who he is yet (Mt. 16:20). Jesus purposefully speaks in parables in order to prevent their coming to faith and repentance (Mark 4:11-13; Matt. 13:11-15). If anything, Jesus is actively provoking the Jews with very difficult teachings. In this chapter he tells them to eat his flesh and drink his blood without explanation (vs. 51-52). Clearly He is not attempting to persuade this audience to stick around. He is provoking them purposefully.

Is this contextual information relevant when attempting to understand the author’s intention with regard to the natural inability of mankind from birth? I certainly would think so given he is addressing a large group of people nicknamed “the elect of God” who are being actively blinded by God from seeing the truth.

Notice, the judicially hardened Jews are not the only ones present when Jesus is speaking in John 6. The twelve apostles are also in the audience and in fact they are the only ones who stick around after Jesus is done provoking the crowd with his “pro-cannibalistic” sounding sermon (vs. 66-67).

Why didn’t the twelve leave too? It is almost as if they were “drawn to him” through persuasive teachings and miraculous signs. Remember, unlike the other Israelites in the audience, they had watched Jesus walk on water, control the weather, heal the blind, feed the masses and had personally explained to them the meaning of the mysteries that the world had not yet been given (Eph. 3: 1-13). [Note: nothing is mentioned in the text of God using an inward, irresistible calling or work of regeneration to convince his apostles. Thomas is shown the scars in order to be persuaded. Jesus clearly indicates his signs are meant to help their unbelief.]

Those Jesus are entrusting with the truth from Israel are only a select few at this time (while He is on earth). The rest are being hardened in their already calloused self-righteous stubborn condition…NOT a condition from birth due to the Fall (as Calvinists impose onto this text), but a condition of their own doing. A condition God is using to accomplish a greater redemptive good for all.

With that historical context in mind let us look at the text:

35 “I am the bread of life,” Jesus told them. “Those who come to me will never be hungry; those who believe in me will never be thirsty. 36 Now, I told you that you have seen me but will not believe. 37 Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me, 38 because I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day. 40 For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day.”

41 The people started grumbling about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 So they said, “This man is Jesus son of Joseph, isn’t he? We know his father and mother. How, then, does he now say he came down from heaven?”

43 Jesus answered, “Stop grumbling among yourselves. 44 People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day. (John 6:35-43)

Calvinism often emphasizes verse 37 as it relates to verse 39 to prove that the author intends to teach Calvinistic doctrine (i.e. that God has preselected a particular number of people to irresistibly draw to faith while leaving all others without the ability to respond to the revelation of God). However, I’d like to draw our attention to the CONTEXT clue given in verse 38.

Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me, 38 because I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day. (John 6:37-39, emphasis added)

Jesus is clearly speaking contextually of what is happening while he is “down from heaven.” While on earth God has clearly sent Christ to accomplish a specific part of His redemptive will. Is that will to be a great evangelist, like Peter in Acts 2, and win thousands to faith? Clearly not. God’s will is for Jesus to come “down from heaven” and train a group of pre-selected Israelites (those given to Him to be apostles) to carry the gospel to the rest of the world and establish His Church after He is raised up (John 12:32; Mt. 28:19).

Calvinism is taking something Jesus is addressing in his actual first century context and applying it to it's holistic systematic view of salvation for all God’s elect throughout all of time. This is an example of proof texting.

What Calvinists unintentionally fail to see is that Jesus, while here on earth in the flesh, is actively and judicially blinding Israel by means of parables, a spirit of stupor, and provoking language, while only drawing to himself (while on earth) a remnant of preselected Israelite messengers (to carry out the purpose for which Israel was elected from the beginning: to bring the light to the rest of the world – Gen. 12:3; Rom. 3:2).

In other words, Jesus’ audience in John 6 is made up of his preselected apostles from Israel and the already calloused Israelites who are being judicially blinded by God from seeing the truth (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:27-27; Mark 4; Matt. 13; Romans 11).

The reason his audience walks away is not because God rejected them from before the foundation of the earth, as Calvinism presumes. By no means! God has consistently expressed his desire for the repentance and faith of the Israelite people (Mt. 23:37; Rom. 10:31; Ezk 18:30-31; 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:4, etc). They are walking away because God has sealed them over in their already rebellious condition for a time in order to accomplish His redemptive plan, as was prophesied (Acts 2:23). Israel is not rejecting God because God rejected them! Quite the opposite. God is temporarily hardening those in their rebellious, calloused condition in order to accomplish redemption for all, including them (Rm. 11:32).

So, what is the intent of John 6? Is it as Calvinism teaches — that God has condemned all men over to a totally disabled condition from birth due to the sin of Adam and only irresistibly draws out a pre-selected number of people for salvation leaving the rest without any hope of response to His own appeals for reconciliation?

OR…Is the intent of John 6 to tell us the narrative of Jesus’ provoking Israel in their hardened unbelief while drawing out for himself a remnant of divinely appoint messengers to take the gospel into all the world, drawing all to himself, after he is raised up?

When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me. – John 12:32

 

[sdowney717]

John chapter 6...what is it's context, who is the audience and what what was going on at the time?

The audience is a bunch of unbelieving Israelites looking for free food (vs. 25-31) and the twelve apostles (vs. 70). What do we know about the Israelites of this day?

a. They had “become calloused…Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them” (Acts 28:27). They were not born calloused, but over time they had grown hardened in their religious self-righteousness which prevented them from hearing, seeing and responding to the revelation of God.

b. They are being ‘judicially hardened’ (or ‘cut off’ or ‘sent a spirit of stupor’) so as to seal them in their calloused condition. Why? To accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellion (crucifixion, ingrafting Gentiles into the church — Rom. 9-11).

c. Jesus is not attempting to “win them over” or have them come to faith in great numbers as we see in Acts 2 when Peter preaches. In fact, in support of God’s judicial hardening of Israel, we see Jesus actively instructing his apostles to not tell others who he is yet (Mt. 16:20). Jesus purposefully speaks in parables in order to prevent their coming to faith and repentance (Mark 4:11-13; Matt. 13:11-15). If anything, Jesus is actively provoking the Jews with very difficult teachings. In this chapter he tells them to eat his flesh and drink his blood without explanation (vs. 51-52). Clearly He is not attempting to persuade this audience to stick around. He is provoking them purposefully.

Is this contextual information relevant when attempting to understand the author’s intention with regard to the natural inability of mankind from birth? I certainly would think so given he is addressing a large group of people nicknamed “the elect of God” who are being actively blinded by God from seeing the truth.

Notice, the judicially hardened Jews are not the only ones present when Jesus is speaking in John 6. The twelve apostles are also in the audience and in fact they are the only ones who stick around after Jesus is done provoking the crowd with his “pro-cannibalistic” sounding sermon (vs. 66-67).

Why didn’t the twelve leave too? It is almost as if they were “drawn to him” through persuasive teachings and miraculous signs. Remember, unlike the other Israelites in the audience, they had watched Jesus walk on water, control the weather, heal the blind, feed the masses and had personally explained to them the meaning of the mysteries that the world had not yet been given (Eph. 3: 1-13). [Note: nothing is mentioned in the text of God using an inward, irresistible calling or work of regeneration to convince his apostles. Thomas is shown the scars in order to be persuaded. Jesus clearly indicates his signs are meant to help their unbelief.]

Those Jesus are entrusting with the truth from Israel are only a select few at this time (while He is on earth). The rest are being hardened in their already calloused self-righteous stubborn condition…NOT a condition from birth due to the Fall (as Calvinists impose onto this text), but a condition of their own doing. A condition God is using to accomplish a greater redemptive good for all.

With that historical context in mind let us look at the text:

35 “I am the bread of life,” Jesus told them. “Those who come to me will never be hungry; those who believe in me will never be thirsty. 36 Now, I told you that you have seen me but will not believe. 37 Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me, 38 because I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day. 40 For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day.”

41 The people started grumbling about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 So they said, “This man is Jesus son of Joseph, isn’t he? We know his father and mother. How, then, does he now say he came down from heaven?”

43 Jesus answered, “Stop grumbling among yourselves. 44 People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day. (John 6:35-43)

Calvinism often emphasizes verse 37 as it relates to verse 39 to prove that the author intends to teach Calvinistic doctrine (i.e. that God has preselected a particular number of people to irresistibly draw to faith while leaving all others without the ability to respond to the revelation of God). However, I’d like to draw our attention to the CONTEXT clue given in verse 38.

Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me, 38 because I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day. (John 6:37-39, emphasis added)

Jesus is clearly speaking contextually of what is happening while he is “down from heaven.” While on earth God has clearly sent Christ to accomplish a specific part of His redemptive will. Is that will to be a great evangelist, like Peter in Acts 2, and win thousands to faith? Clearly not. God’s will is for Jesus to come “down from heaven” and train a group of pre-selected Israelites (those given to Him to be apostles) to carry the gospel to the rest of the world and establish His Church after He is raised up (John 12:32; Mt. 28:19).

Calvinism is taking something Jesus is addressing in his actual first century context and applying it to it's holistic systematic view of salvation for all God’s elect throughout all of time. This is an example of proof texting.

What Calvinists unintentionally fail to see is that Jesus, while here on earth in the flesh, is actively and judicially blinding Israel by means of parables, a spirit of stupor, and provoking language, while only drawing to himself (while on earth) a remnant of preselected Israelite messengers (to carry out the purpose for which Israel was elected from the beginning: to bring the light to the rest of the world – Gen. 12:3; Rom. 3:2).

In other words, Jesus’ audience in John 6 is made up of his preselected apostles from Israel and the already calloused Israelites who are being judicially blinded by God from seeing the truth (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:27-27; Mark 4; Matt. 13; Romans 11).

The reason his audience walks away is not because God rejected them from before the foundation of the earth, as Calvinism presumes. By no means! God has consistently expressed his desire for the repentance and faith of the Israelite people (Mt. 23:37; Rom. 10:31; Ezk 18:30-31; 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:4, etc). They are walking away because God has sealed them over in their already rebellious condition for a time in order to accomplish His redemptive plan, as was prophesied (Acts 2:23). Israel is not rejecting God because God rejected them! Quite the opposite. God is temporarily hardening those in their rebellious, calloused condition in order to accomplish redemption for all, including them (Rm. 11:32).

So, what is the intent of John 6? Is it as Calvinism teaches — that God has condemned all men over to a totally disabled condition from birth due to the sin of Adam and only irresistibly draws out a pre-selected number of people for salvation leaving the rest without any hope of response to His own appeals for reconciliation?

OR…Is the intent of John 6 to tell us the narrative of Jesus’ provoking Israel in their hardened unbelief while drawing out for himself a remnant of divinely appoint messengers to take the gospel into all the world, drawing all to himself, after he is raised up?

When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me. – John 12:32

Your missing something real important there.
You mention judicially hardened jews, ok. However, it was some of His disciples who departed in unbelief, men who had been following Him. So there 3 groups, the jews who never followed Christ, the jews who followed Christ but when He started talking odd spiritual truths departed from Christ, and then those who God had granted them to believe in Christ.

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him

Christ clearly says it is the SPIRIT who gives life. and that life was not given to some to believe in Christ, so again God and Christ are in control of who receives that life. Christ also knew among His own disciples who had been following Him, whether they believed or not in Him. And Christ gives the clear consistent explanation here and in other places why that is so.

 

[AvgJoe]

Your missing something real important there.
You mention judicially hardened jews, ok. However, it was some of His disciples who departed in unbelief, men who had been following Him. So there 3 groups, the jews who never followed Christ, the jews who followed Christ but when He started talking odd spiritual truths departed from Christ, and then those who God had granted them to believe in Christ.

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him

Christ clearly says it is the SPIRIT who gives life. and that life was not given to some to believe in Christ, so again God and Christ are in control of who receives that life. Christ also knew among His own disciples who had been following Him, whether they believed or not in Him. And Christ gives the clear consistent explanation here and in other places why that is so.

In the context of John 6 only the twelve are mentioned, so that is who I focused upon, but clearly there are others close to the apostles who did believe in Christ. But, apostolic authority is only entrusted to a few from among the believing Israelites. In general, the Israelites are being “given over” or “blinded” in their already calloused self righteous stubbornness.

 

[sdowney717]

In the context of John 6 only the twelve are mentioned, so that is who I focused upon, but clearly there are others close to the apostles who did believe in Christ. But, apostolic authority is only entrusted to a few from among the believing Israelites. In general, the Israelites are being “given over” or “blinded” in their already calloused self righteous stubbornness.

What you say is impossible, your original claim of just the jews and just the 12 is shown by the scripture to be error.
Clearly to have been called a disciple meant more than just the common everyday people. It would have meant someone following Christ. There were more than just 12 disciples following Christ and who also remained faithful, more than 12 as Acts 1 proves.

It is some of these disciples, described as MANY who departed from being disciples of Christ in John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

Those left off following Christ as disciples as Christ clearly says the reason was God had not granted them to come to Christ, which means be saved.
All scripture says regarding the 12, in John 6, is Christ asked them if they also would go away, as did many of His other disciples. But even f many of His disciples left, not all did, as Acts 1 clearly shows.
Some of those men were faithful the whole time, and were disciples but not apostles.
Acts 1
21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The only ones who do come are those God foreknew and therefore predestined, hand picked by God to be chosen vessels of His mercy, Romans 8:28-30.

I ask you...so:
Did God FOREKNOW or
Did God PREDESTINE??

If He foreknew, He did not predestine.
So which is it?

Sounds like soft calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What you say is impossible, your original claim of just the jews and just the 12 is shown by the scripture to be error.
Clearly to have been called a disciple meant more than just the common everyday people. It would have meant someone following Christ. There were more than just 12 disciples following Christ and who also remained faithful, more than 12 as Acts 1 proves.

It is some of these disciples, described as MANY who departed from being disciples of Christ in John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

Those left off following Christ as disciples as Christ clearly says the reason was God had not granted them to come to Christ, which means be saved.
All scripture says regarding the 12, in John 6, is Christ asked them if they also would go away, as did many of His other disciples. But even f many of His disciples left, not all did, as Acts 1 clearly shows.
Some of those men were faithful the whole time, and were disciples but not apostles.
Acts 1
21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

What is the difficult statement that the then disciples of Christ were referring to in John 6:60??
(Their leaving only proves that eternal security is incorrect. Another idea by calvin)

What the disciples in John 6:60 are referring to is this:
John 6:47-58

Verse 47 "He who believes has eternal life" Jesus said that whoever believes has eternal life. He leaves the choice to those listening to Him.

Verse 50 The manna came down from heaven. EVERYONE ate of it. It says that one MAY eat of it and not die. We die without food. Even spiritual food.

Verse 51 "If ANYONE eats of this bread, he will live forever".
Jesus states that ANYONE who eats of HIM will live forever.
And that He gives His flesh for the life OF THE WORLD.

They began to argue amongst themselves as to HOW Jesus could give His flesh to eat.

Verse 54 " HE WHO EATS My flesh..." This is a choice sentence. He who eats, whoever eats...

Verses 56-58 WHOEVER eats of the flesh of Jesus shall have eternal life.

Those following Jesus could not understand what He meant and were afraid of it...So some left.

Jesus sayings are not always easy for those who wish to have it be easy and not understand that they have obligations to keep.

So, unless you want to change the meanings of words up above, like THE WHOLE WORLD, or ANYONE, or HE WHO DOES, etc. it's painfully obvious that God makes Himself available to all...

And when are you going to answer my post on Adam and Eve and what came AFTER??? (which YOU brought up).

 

[sdowney717]

Luke 6:13
And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:

There were more than just 12 disciples, as from the larger group of many disciples, Christ chose 12 apostles. Sorry but Christ would not just dismiss everyone else, but he did have a core group known as the 12..

Another example of many others who were known to the 12 as disciples.
Of which already were named 2 men in Acts 1.
Obviously some had also been eyewitnesses of Christ and would have been numbered among the disciples of Christ with Christ, as Acts 1 shows.

Acts 6:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Seven Chosen to Serve
6 Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists,[a] because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. 2 Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business;

 

[EmSw]

God taught us both, but I was a better learner than the other guy, due to my superior free will thinking, lol.
Christian evolutionism, a survival of the fittest.
There are people who really think that way.

And is it your 'superior free will' that mocks others?

 

[EmSw]

God knows the day of our deaths, before our own births, even also little children, the little children who die are elect.
How could it be any other way? I have a post here somewhere that specifically mentions with Calvin's own quotes, Calvin did not believe infant were damned called such an idea a great perversion.

Why are infants not damned, yet adults are? Explain this in 'predestination' terms.

 

[EmSw]

Calvin was very systematic. And yes that is the God of the bible. You are an open theist.
Your understanding is very flawed. God is the creator of all men, but all men are sinners, and God is under no obligation to save any man, God saves only according to His showing mercy and compassion and giving life to one and not another.

Some receive, obtain mercy from God to be saved, and some do not. Go back and reread John 6 and actually believe what Christ says.

1 Peter 1:3 [ A Heavenly Inheritance ] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 2:10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Are you boasting that you are systematic? Are you boasting that your understanding is not flawed?

 

[EmSw]

Christ clearly says it is the SPIRIT who gives life. and that life was not given to some to believe in Christ...

Do you know what you said does to John 3:16?

So life isn't given to some who believe, right? So, how do you have assurance of having life?

 

[EmSw]

No man can be regenerated unless he knows such things as are of the new life, that is, of spiritual life. The things which are of the new life, or which are of the spiritual life, are truths which are to be believed and goods which are to be done; the former are of faith, the latter of charity.

These things no one can know from himself, for man apprehends only those things which are obvious to the senses, from which he procures to himself a light which is called natural light, from which he sees nothing else than what relates to the world and to self, but not the things which relate to heaven and to God. These he must learn from revelation.

As that the Lord, who is God from eternity, came into the world to save the human race; that He has all power in heaven and in earth; that the all of faith and the all of charity, thus all truth and good, is from Him; that there is a heaven, and a hell; and that man is to live to eternity, in heaven if he has done well, in hell if he has done evil.

 

[tulipbee]

One preacher told me he takes the Bible as face value. More like literal things. Whosoever doesn't always mean that "who" is able to make certain choices. Whosoever is not an excuse to say that person is able to save himself by his natural free will

 

[sdowney717]

One preacher told me he takes the Bible as face value. More like literal things. Whosoever doesn't always mean that "who" is able to make certain choices. Whosoever is not an excuse to say that person is able to save himself by his natural free will

In those days, the jews though they were the only possible people of God and not the gentiles who they thought were cursed forever doomed. So to say 'whosoever' includes then people from all over, from the nations that will be saved, so a correction to the jewish nation and encouragement to the gentiles.

In the same way, Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
The early church mostly reached out to the jews, it was only when God started blessing the gentiles with saving faith they they recognized God was at work in the gentile nations to take out of them a people for Himself, also refer to the Jerusalem council as this was no small controversy at the time.

Acts 13
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.


42 [n]So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.