Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

[Saint Steven]

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Sometimes we can, and other times we dare not. For example:

• Rom 5:18-19 . . Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The precise identify of "the many" in the passage above is vague because there are two manys rather than one; which isn't obvious to the untrained eye.

In order to nail it down, it's essential to keep the passage and its manys in context. Here's a paraphrase of that passage in respect to the whole section beginning with Rom 5:12 and ending with 5:21.

> Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all in Adam, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all in Christ. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, all in Adam were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man will all in Christ be made righteous.<

FYI: Though everybody starts out in Adam, not everybody ends up in Christ; but that's a topic for another discussion; one that's intrinsically related to the supernatural birth about which Christ spoke in John 3:3-8 and the baptism of the Holy Spirit spoken of in 1Cor 12:13 & Gal 3:27.
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If that was all I had to share, you might have a point. But it's really just the tip of the iceberg. Here are a few more. Lots more where these came from. (the Bible)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[WebersHome]

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If that was all I had to share, you might have a point. But it's really just the tip of the iceberg. Here are a few more.

What are you going to do for ammo when the day arrives that your silver bullets are used up and every one of them missed?
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[Saint Steven]

I'll emphasize the key points here.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Saint Steven]

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What are you going to do for ammo when the day arrives that your silver bullets are used up and every one of them missed?
_

I hit the bullseye with the first one. For some reason you are unable to see that. What happens on the day that you regain your eyesight?

But if you feel confident that these additional scriptures don't mean what they plainly say, have at it.

Were the scriptures I quoted somehow non-authoritative in your view?

 

[Saint Steven]

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What are you going to do for ammo when the day arrives that your silver bullets are used up and every one of them missed?
_

Furthermore...
Universal Restorationism is only one of three biblical options for the doctrine of the final judgment. Even if one of the other two views is the correct one, I would rather be a Christian Universalist than a Damnationist or Annihilationist. I will gladly apologize to God for having such high regard for his character if I am wrong.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is precisley the point-the billions. We are up to 8 billion people on the planet & albeit the holidays make it seem the whole world embraces Christianity, it doesn't. Or maybe it embraces it in a different avenue. If only 1 of the 8 billion have accepted Christ, that's not a very high rate. So maybe there is something more profound to the story.

As I said to someone else, why go with the large numbers? If you have a problem with 1 billion out of 8 billion, why not go with 1 person out of 8 billion? Doesn't the principle still stand?

But yes, there is definitely more to the story, than what meets the eye of someone who wants to contradict the Word of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's a whole topic of its own.
Does that mean that your pet verses are authoritative and mine aren't? (how come?)
Are you claiming that my scriptures are not authoritative?
How do you define the word "Scripture"?

So, I guess your answer would be, "Well, not exactly..."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do your children, siblings or parents become worthless when they have outgrown their usefulness to you? Do you put them out on the curb on garbage pickup day?

I thought you knew --sorry-- I will repeat it: God is not like us; we are like him, however little it be so. We are not the creators of our children. We don't OWN them by right of being their Creator. On top of that, we are a mere 20 -40 years or so older than they are. They are, then, in some sense our peers. He is not our peer.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's the standard unsatisfactory response. That only says that a creator is obvious in creation. Nothing to do with salvation.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Back to my original question: What about the countless billions that had no prior knowledge? Is that fair justice?

Saint Steven said: ↑
(for the sake of self-preservation)

It has everything to do with salvation. You ask, what about those who had "no prior knowledge?" Is Paul not talking about prior knowledge when he says they are without excuse? You sound like you would argue with Paul.

The fact of the existence of God is replete with implications, many of them instinctive as well as intellectual. And all of them moral in one way or another. The fact that the Creator exists implies our subservience, his intimate knowledge of us, his creatures that he owns, and the fact of the HUGE moral difference between him and us. Many many more things are implied -- our humble estate vs God's Greatness, our complete need for him and for redemption. Then, too, there's the implication that we are here for a reason --and that being HIS reason.

 

[lordjeff]

This speaks to the deepest longing of the human soul. The longing for place, for home. The longing to be united with our forever family.

I've heard another description from some minister type: hell is the absence of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You are imposing your doctrinal dogma on the scripture. That is NOT what it plainly says.

Two equal comparisons are being made. How many were made sinners by the disobedience of the one man? "the many" = all

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Do you need me to quote the context? Sorry, man, but the context comes with it. You try to make it irrelevant.

 

[Saint Steven]

But yes, there is definitely more to the story, than what meets the eye of someone who wants to contradict the Word of God.

Since when is YOUR opinion "the Word of God"?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus went and made proclamation to those imprisoned who were disobedient in the days of Noah. And he led captivity captive. Why can't that happen again?

Why 'again'? Didn't he die once-for-all? It doesn't need to happen again. If you could look at it from God's POV, you might find yourself wishing to express it in human terms as "he is still doing it", or "it is still in effe

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

I didn't quote all your post, as most of it seems to go on with what you end with here, if I follow your reasoning: To your mind, when Peter says that they are to be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, "but live according to God in regard to the spirit" the implication is that they too become regenerated? They will live according to God in regard to the Spirit --it does not mean they are saved, but that their spirit is still alive, by the act of God who made them. Do they not then face the Lake of Fire after the judgement? They are neither annihilated, nor does their condemnation come to an end. These verses seem to me to be saying the same as other places in scripture, where even our own consciences will testify against us, and the standards we set (for others) will be used to measure us. Peter does not (as far as I have seen) interrupt nor end his discourse with anything like, "and so [those preached to in the grave] will be saved --yet so as by fire." You seem to preach a different kind of OSAS.

You seem to think you can make God better, more loving, than the Bible does. But it is not by your notion of love (nor mine) that Scripture must be interpreted.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You have it backwards.
In my experience, Universalism is EVERYWHERE in the Bible that Damnationism and Annihilationism isn't. That is the greater message. The God is love. That God is the absolute manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit. No hell to be found there. God's anger may last for a day, but is mercy is everlasting. Is it not?

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

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Hell is not love.
Hell is not joy.
Hell is not peace.
Hell is not forbearance. (patience)
Hell is not kindness.
Hell is not goodness.
Hell is not faithfulness.
Hell is not gentleness.
Hell is not self-control.

In your last little list here, you would have hell (LOF) to be those things?

As you have heard before, you must not interpret the Word of God according to your notion (nor may I according to mine) of God's Love. God's love is the baseline, so to speak, the default fact, and from there is described by Scripture --not Scripture by what we think God's love must be like.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Since when is YOUR opinion "the Word of God"?

Twice, now, I have grouped my opinion with yours as being unequal to the task.

 

[Saint Steven]

Twice, now, I have grouped my opinion with yours as being unequal to the task.

If my opinion is valid, why not say so? Your opinion is valid.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If my opinion is valid, why not say so? Your opinion is valid.

Valid for what? Neither opinion is worthy for measuring God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

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It is a terrible, awful tragedy that so many people end up in Hell simply because they didn't believe Christ's crucifixion is an adequate retribution for their sins; and also that God is fully agreeable to shredding the indictment He was compiling against them listing all the bad things they ever did, and/or they will ever do, in thought, word, and deed.

WebersHome:

I am waiting for you to explain why ending up in Hell is, to quote you: "a terrible, awful tragedy." What happens to people when they end up there? Do tell.

Alter2Ego


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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Saint Steven]

Valid for what? Neither opinion is worthy for measuring God.

I say God is a loving heavenly Father. We are his children. There is a reason for this analogy. We have human relationships that mirror what the Father is. We are of incredibly valuable in his sight. He loves us so much and longs for a restored relationship. In fact, he gave his only begotten to buy us back by paying our sin debt. (the death penalty) All of humankind was redeemed by Christ. The plan of redemption will be fulfilled when all of creation is restored. (Matthew 19:28; Acts 3:21; Romans 8:20-21; Romans 5:10; Romans 11:36; Isaiah 65:17; Revelation 21:5; Malachi 3:2)

What do you say?

 

[Saint Steven]

The restoration of all things

Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isaiah 65:17
“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

Revelation 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.