Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

[lordjeff]

Good old Romans: "... so that they are without excuse."

This is precisley the point-the billions. We are up to 8 billion people on the planet & albeit the holidays make it seem the whole world embraces Christianity, it doesn't. Or maybe it embraces it in a different avenue. If only 1 of the 8 billion have accepted Christ, that's not a very high rate. So maybe there is something more profound to the story.

 

[Saint Steven]

Honest question: Do you accept the authority of Scripture?

That's a whole topic of its own.
Does that mean that your pet verses are authoritative and mine aren't? (how come?)
Are you claiming that my scriptures are not authoritative?
How do you define the word "Scripture"?

 

[lordjeff]

"He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and he will harden whom he will harden."

Makes sense to me. Also seems to be in compliane with Paul's Letter to the Romans on the blindness of the Jews. It's all deliberate under the Creator. So Paul's projection is right.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is only because of his plan and use for us that we are of any worth.

Do your children, siblings or parents become worthless when they have outgrown their usefulness to you? Do you put them out on the curb on garbage pickup day?

 

[Saint Steven]

You quote Scripture for what --to use against us, who believe Scripture?

Are you claiming that I don't believe scripture? How did my scripture become non-scripture that you don't believe? Why is belief in your scriptures superior to my belief in my scriptures? By what authority do you nullify my scriptures? I don't nullify yours.

 

[WebersHome]

.

What about the forever burning hell? Isn't that biblical?

Human existence consists of three components: body, soul, and spirit. (Gen 2:7 & 1Thess 5:23).

There's adequate scriptural evidence that the body and the soul are perishable, but I have yet to encounter a passage indicating that the spirit is so. I'm not saying there is no textual evidence, it's just that I myself have yet to discover it.

If the passage in Luke 16:19-31 is a true-life story, then we are safe to believe that the spirit remains sentient and cognizant when people transfer from this life to the next. The rich man was buried; yet his tongue, his senses, his eyesight, his hearing, his memory, and his ability to recognize people from a distance are still working.

At the time of the story; Abraham was dead and buried too, yet he was capable of carrying on an intelligent dialogue with the rich man.

Also, when Jesus was transfigured on the mountain, he discussed his impending crucifixion with Moses and Elijah, which means that although the vision displayed future glory, the two men's conversation with Jesus was in the present; indicating that Moses and Elijah, though dead men, were existing somewhere in the afterlife, and they were fully sentient, fully aware of their circumstances, and fully capable of intelligent dialogue.
_

 

[Saint Steven]

"All" and "the many" are to show the scope of the point --not the point itself. That is to say, "If anybody at all is to be made righteous, it is through the obedience of the one man." as it says elsewhere, "There is one God and one mediator --the man Christ Jesus." Likewise, "As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive" is the same sort of construction: In the same way all die in Adam, so nobody can be made alive but by Christ.

You are imposing your doctrinal dogma on the scripture. That is NOT what it plainly says.

Two equal comparisons are being made. How many were made sinners by the disobedience of the one man? "the many" = all

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

About the Roman Centurion, in the Orthodox tradition, this man soon recognized the Messiah so in the tradition he is the 1st person at the gate of heaven. In all frankness, it is the Creator who assigns our fate, not our thinking cap. The Catholic Catechism on Judas Iscariot-it's known to God alone.

That's good.

Jesus teaching about loving our enemies comes into play here. (godly behavior)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

Good old Romans: "... so that they are without excuse."

That's the standard unsatisfactory response. That only says that a creator is obvious in creation. Nothing to do with salvation.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Back to my original question: What about the countless billions that had no prior knowledge? Is that fair justice?

Saint Steven said: ↑
(for the sake of self-preservation)

 

[Saint Steven]

"He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and he will harden whom he will harden."

But is that the end of it?

Jesus went and made proclamation to those imprisoned who were disobedient in the days of Noah. And he led captivity captive. Why can't that happen again?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Saint Steven]

.

Human existence consists of three components: body, soul, and spirit. (Gen 2:7 & 1Thess 5:23).

There's adequate scriptural evidence that the body and the soul are perishable, but I have yet to encounter a passage indicating that the spirit is so. I'm not saying there is no textual evidence, it's just that I myself have yet to discover it.

If the passage in Luke 16:19-31 is a true-life story, then we are safe to believe that the spirit remains sentient and cognizant when people transfer from this life to the next. The rich man was buried; yet his tongue, his senses, his eyesight, his hearing, his memory, and his ability to recognize people from a distance are still working.

At the time of the story; Abraham was dead and buried too, yet he was capable of carrying on an intelligent dialogue with the rich man.

Also, when Jesus was transfigured on the mountain, he discussed his impending crucifixion with Moses and Elijah, which means that although the vision displayed future glory, the two men's conversation with Jesus was in the present; indicating that Moses and Elijah, though dead men, were existing somewhere in the afterlife, and they were fully sentient, fully aware of their circumstances, and fully capable of intelligent dialogue.
_

Add this to those you have quoted.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

 

[Saint Steven]

Add this to those you have quoted.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

And this one.

John 11:25-27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[lordjeff]

That's a whole topic of its own.
Does that mean that your pet verses are authoritative and mine aren't? (how come?)
Are you claiming that my scriptures are not authoritative?
How do you define the word "Scripture"?

Lots of scripture was embellished or established by schools of thought. Destiny is realm of God so I don't claim i have the absolute answer. We may all have an opinion, but we are divine providence.

 

[lordjeff]

Do your children, siblings or parents become worthless when they have outgrown their usefulness to you? Do you put them out on the curb on garbage pickup day?

No albeit there are others who probably do execute this practice.

 

[lordjeff]

And this one.

John 11:25-27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

The absolute most supernatural thing that in my Father's House there are many mansions. Has to be.

 

[Saint Steven]

The absolute most supernatural thing that in my Father's House there are many mansions. Has to be.

This speaks to the deepest longing of the human soul. The longing for place, for home. The longing to be united with our forever family.

 

[Saint Steven]

You want to know where the authority to treat these verses comes from, instead of reading them as you do, by themselves, out of context? It comes from the rest of Scripture. Where do you get any authority to read them as stand-alone verses? Paul talks in whole discourses of rhetoric --not in stand alone wise sayings and theological statements.

You have it backwards.
In my experience, Universalism is EVERYWHERE in the Bible that Damnationism and Annihilationism isn't. That is the greater message. The God is love. That God is the absolute manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit. No hell to be found there. God's anger may last for a day, but is mercy is everlasting. Is it not?

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hell is not love.
Hell is not joy.
Hell is not peace.
Hell is not forbearance. (patience)
Hell is not kindness.
Hell is not goodness.
Hell is not faithfulness.
Hell is not gentleness.
Hell is not self-control.

 

[WebersHome]

.

What about the countless billions that had no prior knowledge? Is that fair justice?

Unbelief as it's related to Christ's gospel is one thing; whereas unbelief as it's related to the universal gospel is quite another. For example the text of the universal gospel located in Rev 14:6-7 which reads:

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, announcing with a loud voice: Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

There's no baby Jesus, no virgin conception, no crucifixion, and no resurrection in the universal gospel. It's a bounce from the first chapter of Genesis, with elements from the 19th Psalm. The universal gospel is very basic; pretty much all it says is:

1» There's a supreme being.

2» He deserves respect.

3» There's a reckoning to face some day.

4» The cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the product of intelligent design.

According to portions of the letter to Romans, everyone has access to the universal gospel via their logic, their conscience, and the realm of nature so that the angel won't be announcing anything new; it will only be reiterating what every sensible person knows already without having to read a Bible or listen to a preacher.

Unbelief as it's related to the universal gospel is serious, but far less serious than unbelief related to Christ's gospel (see Luke 12:47-48). People who resist and/or suppress Christ's gospel are immediately condemned when they do so-- no delay and no waiting period. (John 3:18 & John 3:36).
_

 

[WebersHome]

.

Can't you take the scripture at face value?

Sometimes we can, and other times we dare not. For example:

• Rom 5:18-19 . . Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The precise identify of "the many" in the passage above is vague because there are two manys rather than one; which isn't obvious to the untrained eye.

In order to nail down "the many", it's essential to keep the passage and its manys in context. Here's a paraphrase of that passage in respect to the whole section beginning with Rom 5:12 and ending with 5:21.

> Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all in Adam, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all in Christ. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, all in Adam were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man will all in Christ be made righteous.<

FYI: Though everybody starts out in Adam, not everybody ends up in Christ-- a.k.a. in him --but that's a topic for another discussion; one that's intrinsically related to the supernatural birth about which Christ spoke in John 3:3-8 and the baptism of the Holy Spirit spoken of in 1Cor 12:13 & Gal 3:27.
_

 

[Saint Steven]

The universal gospel is very basic; pretty much all it says is:

1» There's a supreme being.

2» He deserves respect.

3» There's a reckoning to face some day.

4» The cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the product of intelligent design.

Wow, what did the Apostle Paul say about "different gospel"? (Galatians 1:6)
Where is Christ in your so-called "universal" gospel?

That reference to "every nation, tribe, people and language" comes up several times.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.