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That's a good analogy. Jesus said...
You are right, although I would not say that someone who believes in purgatory will go to hell for that. Some people believe in purgatory because their church teaches it (without checking the Bible for it themselves) and others believe in purgatory because they cannot deal with the fact that people will be in hell for all eternity.
While this thread is about "people going to hell because they don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice is enough" I think not all Christians believing in purgatory are part of that group
I disagree the whole point of purgatory is the teaching that Christ’s sacrifice didn’t pay for all our sins.
Haha. Oh but it did! It paid for the Chemo.
That doesn't mean that Chemo will be pleasant though
I'll tell you a funny joke.
A man has cancer in a 3rd world country - he's dying, but he doesn't know it. In fact ALL of the people of this 3rd world country have this cancer.
There's a brilliant doctor in another country, he has a cure for this cancer but
a) the man can't pay for it.
and b) the man doesn't even recognize that he has it. It's Stage 1. He's not going to know until it's too late.
The doctor sends his son to the third world country, letting them know that his son will personally pay for the treatment if they follow his advice, believe what his son is saying and begin the process in their country until they can come to his.
Some of them listen and believe the son
Some of them listen and never follow his son's advice
Some them say they listen to and believe in the son and give completely different and absolutely contrary advice (one of the symptoms of this particular form of cancer apparently is progressive insanity)
Some of them (particularly the 3rd world medical doctors) are so outraged at the suggestion that they are diseased and worried about losing their jobs and credibility that they form a mob and they kill his son.
Nevertheless, the doctor makes a memorial to his son in the 3rd world country
In the shape of a cross
And the offer still stands to this day
Some of the 3rd world countrymen who knew the son
Preserve his teachings and spirit and begin to create hospitals where the process can begin
For that those that believe him
Ok that's not so funny.
But, you get the drift.
In this scenario your implying that Jesus didn’t actually heal anything. Your implying that we heal ourselves, Christ only told us how.
So where does Christ’s sacrifice take place in this scenario you’ve created? This scenario only contains Christ ministry not his sacrifice
The KJV tacks on some extra wording to Mark 9:49 so that it reads like this:Everyone will be salted with fire.
Christ said "Follow me" I think, among other things. "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life"
I don't think a man who is following Christ is "healing himself"
But I do think he will be healed.
Without Christ, he has nothing to follow that will do that.
Probably around the point that the mob kills him because they feel threatened by the truth of the situation? And he lets them, knowing what his Father will do
If my scenario misses anything, I think its missing the resurrection (replaced with the memorial through which the son lives on) rather than the sacrifice. No allegories are perfect (and this one is not meant to be); I think the careful reader will find the resurrection to be implied through the doctor's actions in honoring those that honored the memorial to his son, believed in him enough to do what he said and those that carried on his son's work in the 3rd world country.
Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Christ said "Follow me" I think, among other things. "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life"
I don't think a man who is following Christ is "healing himself"
But I do think he will be healed.
Without Christ, he has nothing to follow that will do that.
Probably around the point that the mob kills him because they feel threatened by the truth of the situation? And he lets them, knowing what his Father will do
John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.
If my scenario misses anything, I think its missing the resurrection (replaced with the memorial through which the son lives on) rather than the sacrifice. No allegories are perfect (and this one is not meant to be); I think the careful reader will find the resurrection to be implied through the doctor's actions in honoring those that honored the memorial to his son, believed in him enough to do what he said and those that carried on his son's work in the 3rd world country.
Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
There is reason to believe that, were God to withdraw from us, we would even cease to exist, or at least, would become wraiths at best, altogether lacking in virtue or anything else to commend ourselves to anyone.Your question seems to prove my point.
The words stare at me blankly, unable to comprehend the value of a living breathing soul for which God gave his only begotten to purchase back from death. smh
Saint Steven said: ↑
This is the way Damnationism devalues humanity. Those created in God's image.
See I don’t believe that our atonement is a one time event but an ongoing event provided that we repent of our sins.
There is reason to believe that, were God to withdraw from us, we would even cease to exist, or at least, would become wraiths at best, altogether lacking in virtue or anything else to commend ourselves to anyone.
We are in complete agreement here, I think. I love 1 John very much.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
This too, I feel is ongoing and not a one time event. At least, it needs to be, in my experience.
To me, it's a bit like a man setting out on a journey - he's heading True North.
He has a compass with him that was given to him as gift from the King of the North, even though earlier in his life he was 'headed South' so to speak and belonged to the King of the South
No matter how far he may stray, or in what direction he turns himself, that compass will always point True North. It's a continuous invitation. He can never get so far South that the compass will become angry and cease to tell him in what direction to head when he looks to it. And there are good things awaiting the man, the further North he travels. When he travels North, he belongs to the Kingdom of the North and has his back to the King of the South. When he travels South, he belongs to the Kingdom of the South, and has his back to the King of the North.
He will never get all the way North or South. But eventually the man will be met by the King whose land he belongs to and have the reward appropriate to the progress of his journey. And that King will take him by the hand, and take him the rest of the way, whether he likes it or not.
Some people say, "the journey of 10,000 miles starts with the first step". But I like to say "No, it starts with pointing yourself in the right direction. It might not take 10,000 miles if you do. It may take considerably more if you don't." And if I am going on a lifetime journey, it might help to check the compass I was given, frequently, and correct my direction. Otherwise, I wouldn't anticipate arriving at my intended destination. It, like me, was bought with a price.
Here John indicates that even our sins after we have come to Christ are forgiven and paid in full. Now of course repentance is implied in this message. Obviously if we turn away from God and don’t repent then our sins will not be forgiven.
We are in complete agreement here, I think. I love 1 John very much.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
This too, I feel is ongoing and not a one time event. At least, it needs to be, in my experience.
To me, it's a bit like a man setting out on a journey - he's heading True North.
He has a compass with him that was given to him as gift from the King of the North, even though earlier in his life he was 'headed South' so to speak and belonged to the King of the South
No matter how far he may stray, or in what direction he turns himself, that compass will always point True North. It's a continuous invitation. He can never get so far South that the compass will become angry and cease to tell him in what direction to head when he looks to it. And there are good things awaiting the man, the further North he travels. When he travels North, he belongs to the Kingdom of the North and has his back to the King of the South. When he travels South, he belongs to the Kingdom of the South, and has his back to the King of the North.
He will never get all the way North or South. But eventually the man will be met by the King whose land he belongs to and have the reward appropriate to the progress of his journey. And that King will take him by the hand, and take him the rest of the way, whether he likes it or not.
Some people say, "the journey of 10,000 miles starts with the first step". But I like to say "No, it starts with pointing yourself in the right direction. It might not take 10,000 miles if you do. It may take considerably more if you don't." And if I am going on a lifetime journey, it might help to check the compass I was given, frequently, and correct my direction. Otherwise, I wouldn't anticipate arriving at my intended destination. It, like me, was bought with a price.
Well put. Well said.Yes... people sometimes speak of 'the oxygen leaving the room' when someone unpleasant arrives or something bad happens. I think as long as there is the breath of life in our lungs, God is at least somewhat present.
I can imagine a room full of friends, laughing and enjoying each others company. What I consider to be 'the spirit of God' is present there, whether they know it or not, and that is Grace. Sometimes we enjoy a greater portion of it and we are always happier when we do (whether we recognize the source of it or not). But if it were to withdraw slowly and completely over the course of an hour, they would become envious or irritated with one another. Resentments would be remembered and manufactured. Just before it left completely they would be at each other's throats, and when it was gone completely, so too would be the life of them. At least, this is how I imagine things.
In this case, I think the worm is the cure. And it will not give up until it has completed the healing. I think some cultures actually use worms for healing."where their worm does not die"
might in that analogy become
"where their cancer is not cured"
Not a punishment, but a necessary outcome of choosing to skip Chemo
I have heard of maggots being used to eat away dead tissue/ gangrene.In this case, I think the worm is the cure. And it will not give up until it has completed the healing. I think some cultures actually use worms for healing.
Wretched souls?The "every one" spoken of in verse 49 likely belongs with the wretched souls in verses 47 & 48, where it's stated:
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
It does little good to show you what the Bible says about this if you are just going to talk your way around it. Can't you take the scripture at face value?There is reason to believe that, were God to withdraw from us, we would even cease to exist, or at least, would become wraiths at best, altogether lacking in virtue or anything else to commend ourselves to anyone.
Scripture does not claim that Christ actually paid the penalty of the sin of the damned. If he died "for" them, it was only as offered --if they would have received, then actual, but the ultimately damned never do.
Double payment makes no sense, I think you would agree on at least that.
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