Who did Moses chat with?

[from scratch]

I think you need to learn the origin of Genesis and ancient Hebrew theology. Yahweh was originally part of the Ugaritic pantheon. He was the God of Israel, but one of many gods worshiped by the ancient Hebrews at the time. (They were polytheistic originally). The "us" being referred to is most likely referring to this pantheon of Caananite gods. It was incorporated into the Tanakh by the Hebrews as their theology progressed and they sought to eliminate the other gods, leaving only Yahweh.

Ugarit and the Bible


El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the “father of men”, “creator”, and “creator of the creation”. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament.


Other deities worshipped at Ugarit were El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are applied to Yahweh by the writers of the Old Testament. What this means is that the Hebrew theologians adopted the titles of the Canaanite gods and attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to eliminate them. If Yahweh is all of these there is no need for the Canaanite gods to exist! This process is known as assimilation.

Incredible to say the least. Well at least My God is the Victor who soundly defeated those other gods.

 

[from scratch]

I can't believe the faith destroying posts I have read here. I don't understand at all how some of the posters can claim they believe as the requirements for posting in this section.

That for sure is why I have the amazed mood indicator in the top right corner.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Good point! Very good wabbit. Now I ask if it wasn't God the Father speaking in Gen 1:26 and 3:15? If it was then where or how does it change to Jesus at Mt Sinai?

i think the answer is obvious!

 

[from scratch]

i don't see how, they saw God standing there. they saw His feet and what He was standing on (ex 24:10).



based on what the bible says, it couldn't be the Father, that's for sure. so, it's simple process of elimination (you know? that logic stuff).

then Who was it since They couldn't be identified. It couldn't have been Jesus. And I think it is figurative much like Moses saying the tablets were writen by the finger of God. How could he know since he couldn't identify the finger? I think it is simply a way of communicating that Moses didn't chisle them himself.

no, i'm not saying that. how you processed that with what i wrote is beyond me.



how does it not look well?

 

[from scratch]

i think the answer is obvious!

Then show the blindman with a verse.

 

[Catherineanne]

These scriptures you refer to in Gen. don't point to a trinity.
You need to look else where.

I am afraid you are mistaken.

You may disagree with the interpretation, but the Father Son and Holy Spirit are right there, in Genesis. God the Father cannot walk in a garden.

When I am challenged by Moslems attempting to tell me that the Trinity is a 4th century construct, I simply point them to the Garden of Eden and ask, can Allah walk in a garden? The answer, of course, is no. He can't. Moslems do not have an Incarnate God. We do. And as the Gospel of John tells us, he was in the beginning with God, by him all things were made, and without him was not anything made that was made.

It is that simple.

 

[David64]

I am afraid you are mistaken.

You may disagree with the interpretation, but the Father Son and Holy Spirit are right there, in Genesis. God the Father cannot walk in a garden.

When I am challenged by Moslems attempting to tell me that the Trinity is a 4th century construct, I simply point them to the Garden of Eden and ask, can Allah walk in a garden? The answer, of course, is no. He can't. Moslems do not have an Incarnate God. We do. And as the Gospel of John tells us, he was in the beginning with God, by him all things were made, and without him was not anything made that was made.

It is that simple.

Was there a point in all that convoluted verbiage.

 

[Lion King]

I am afraid you are mistaken.

You may disagree with the interpretation, but the Father Son and Holy Spirit are right there, in Genesis. God the Father cannot walk in a garden.

Says who?

I know only of one thing which is impossible for the LORD , and this is not it.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Then show the blindman with a verse.

here are the some verses again for you:

when the bible refers to the "Angel of the Lord", it is referring to the One we know as the Christ.

moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!

John 1:1(NKJV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

word, strongs G3056
G3056

λόγος

logos

log'-os

From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ):—account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

He that speaks came to this world in the flesh jn 1:14!

now, look at this:

Hebrews 2:7-9(NKJV)
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

moses didn't see the face of God! (ex 33:20-23), you have to remember that when He appeared in His Glory, He often hid Himself in a thick black cloud!

notice this:

Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

now, compare to:

John 1:18(NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Who declared Whom?)

John 6:46(NKJV)
46Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

so, who did moses and the others see? i think it's safe to say it wasn't the Father!

exodus says they saw God and 1jn says no one has seen God. there can be no contradiction.

so, the One we know as Jesus is the answer!

i definitely haven't found any scripture that suggests it was God's Holy Spirit.

now here's more scripture for proof!

Exodus 14:19-20,24(NKJV)
19And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. 20So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night... 24Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians.

the phrase "Angel of God" is referring to God and not some angel. the Angel of God in this instance is the one we know as the Christ.

Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

God talked to moses from the cloud. so, we know who's in the cloud. from the verses that john wrote, i.e. jn 1:18, we know this could not be God the Father.

Exodus 33:9-10(NKJV)
9And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.
10All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.

Numbers 14:14(NKJV)
14and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.

can't get much clearer on Who's going before the COI in a pillar of cloud!

1 Corinthians 10:1-4(NKJV)
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3all ate the same spiritual food,
4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

you see?

you don't have to believe me, just believe the bible.

the bible says it was Christ!

"and that Rock was Christ"

 

[from scratch]

here are the some verses again for you:



exodus says they saw God and 1jn says no one has seen God. there can be no contradiction.

That is interesting. If Moses saw God why is he asking in 33:20 and being refuesed?

so, the One we know as Jesus is the answer!

What do you base this on? a hypothesis?

i definitely haven't found any scripture that suggests it was God's Holy Spirit.

now here's more scripture for proof!

Exodus 14:19-20,24(NKJV)
19And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. 20So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night... 24Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians.

the phrase "Angel of God" is referring to God and not some angel. the Angel of God in this instance is the one we know as the Christ.

I see no basis for that assumption.

Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

God talked to moses from the cloud. so, we know who's in the cloud. from the verses that john wrote, i.e. jn 1:18, we know this could not be God the Father. [/quote]So what are you saying here? Are you suggesting that God the Father doesn't speak to humans?

Exodus 33:9-10(NKJV)
9And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.
10All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.

Numbers 14:14(NKJV)
14and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.

can't get much clearer on Who's going before the COI in a pillar of cloud!

Beats me how you get Jesus out of that. Is it from the word Lord?

1 Corinthians 10:1-4(NKJV)
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3all ate the same spiritual food,
4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

you see?

you don't have to believe me, just believe the bible.

You surely must take this in a literal sense. I don't. There is much debate on this. I think you don't understand all the things that happened in the wilderness as Israel wanders about. If so then Jesus was a literal stone.

the bible says it was Christ!

"and that Rock was Christ"

If the text said Jesus Christ I might agree. NTL you have a great proof text. The word Christ is a title and not a name.

 

[David64]

If the text said Jesus Christ I might agree. NTL you have a great proof text. The word Christ is a title and not a name.

That is laughable. The only one refered to as the anointed one, i.e. Christ, is Jesus.

 

[from scratch]

That is laughable. The only one refered to as the anointed one, i.e. Christ, is Jesus.

Not so. Check the word Messiah the Hebrew equivalent. Also can you explain why some asked if Jesus was the Christ? It is one thing that is in every Gospel and John includes it in some of his other writings.

 

[David64]

Not so. Check the word Messiah the Hebrew equivalent. Also can you explain why some asked if Jesus was the Christ? It is one thing that is in every Gospel and John includes it in some of his other writings.

 

[from scratch]

OK

 

[JohnRabbit]

That is interesting. If Moses saw God why is he asking in 33:20 and being refuesed?

simple.

what is being refused?

Exodus 33:20-23(NKJV)
20But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
21And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
23Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

the verses are clear. what moses was refused was seeing the face of God, however, he did see a portion of God (his backside).

so, moses did see God (verse 23)! God told moses that he could see him, just not His face!

What do you base this on? a hypothesis?[/COLOR]

i didn't base anything on an assumption, just from what i read in the bible.


Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

I see no basis for that assumption.

maybe some rereading may help.

God talked to moses from the cloud. so, we know who's in the cloud. from the verses that john wrote, i.e. jn 1:18, we know this could not be God the Father.[/quote]So what are you saying here? Are you suggesting that God the Father doesn't speak to humans?

no, i'm not saying that. where'd you get that from? what i said is plainly written!

Beats me how you get Jesus out of that. Is it from the word Lord?

surely you know it was God Who was in the pillar of cloud and this is the Being that israel and moses saw. with jn1:18 and the similar verse i've listed, one can only conclude that it was not the Father. (the scripture cannot be broken jn 10:35).

so, no matter how you slice it, parse it, or debate it, somebody saw God, and it could not have been the Father or else the bible has a contradiction!

You surely must take this in a literal sense. I don't. There is much debate on this. I think you don't understand all the things that happened in the wilderness as Israel wanders about. If so then Jesus was a literal stone.

you can take it any way you want. i believe the bible!

If the text said Jesus Christ I might agree. NTL you have a great proof text. The word Christ is a title and not a name.

again, there you go with the parse.

no wonder David64 is laughing!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by from scratch Not so. Check the word Messiah the Hebrew equivalent. Also can you explain why some asked if Jesus was the Christ? It is one thing that is in every Gospel and John includes it in some of his other writings.

What's so funny?
Scratch may be on to something there

Young) John 1:41 this one doth first find his own brother Simon, and saith to him, `We have found the Messiah/messian <3323>",' (which is, being interpreted, The Anointed/Christ,)

Young) John 4:25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah/messiaV <3323> is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."

Strong's Number G3323 matches the Greek &#924;&#949;&#963;&#963;&#8055;&#945;&#962; (Messias), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
3323. Messias of Hebrew origin (4899); the Messias (i.e. Mashiach), or Christ:--Messias.

Daniel 9:25 And thou shall know and thou shall be intelligent/wise from going forth of a Word to return-of and to build-up-of Jerusalem until_an annointed-one/04899 mashiyach, prince/ruler, sevens, seven.........

Daniel 9:26 And after the sevens, sixty and two, he shall be cut off, an annointed one/04899 mashiyach and is nothing to him.

 

[from scratch]

simple.

what is being refused?

Exodus 33:20-23(NKJV)
20But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
21And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
23Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

the verses are clear. what moses was refused was seeing the face of God, however, he did see a portion of God (his backside).

so, moses did see God (verse 23)! God told moses that he could see him, just not His face!



i didn't base anything on an assumption, just from what i read in the bible.


Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.



maybe some rereading may help.



no, i'm not saying that. where'd you get that from? what i said is plainly written!



surely you know it was God Who was in the pillar of cloud and this is the Being that israel and moses saw. with jn1:18 and the similar verse i've listed, one can only conclude that it was not the Father. (the scripture cannot be broken jn 10:35).

so, no matter how you slice it, parse it, or debate it, somebody saw God, and it could not have been the Father or else the bible has a contradiction!



you can take it any way you want. i believe the bible!



again, there you go with the parse.

no wonder David64 is laughing!

So what is Moses really asking if infact he saw God? Wasn't it said that Moses and the elders saw God's feet on jasper or something?

I think that Moses's real question was let me identify you by sight. A person is recognized by their face by the common man. These days we are also recognized by other features such as finger prints or eye charistics. I know of no one who is recognized (identified) by their feet or the back. Do you?

Now why did God say no one can see My face and live if that wasn't what Moses was asking?

 

[YosemiteSam]

So what is Moses really asking if infact he saw God? Wasn't it said that Moses and the elders saw God's feet on jasper or something?

I think that Moses's real question was let me identify you by sight. A person is recognized by their face by the common man. These days we are also recognized by other features such as finger prints or eye charistics. I know of no one who is recognized (identified) by their feet or the back. Do you?

Now why did God say no one can see My face and live if that wasn't what Moses was asking?

What in the world is the first question...JohnRabbit posted the answer...HUH?

Moses wanted to see God...and God let him see his backside...TOLD him, he could not see HIS FACE...how hard is that? Definately not rocket science.

They saw his feet in the mount! Okay, that is still not His Face...

In there verse your referring to Ex 24:10,,we also see the Son of Man's feet being described in Rev 2 and Rev 10...We see what was under His feet from what Moses was describing what he saw also being described in the New Jerusalem in Rev 21...

 

[YosemiteSam]

That is interesting. If Moses saw God why is he asking in 33:20 and being refuesed?What do you base this on? a hypothesis?I see no basis for that assumption.

[/color]

Exodus 24:15-16(NKJV)
15Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

God talked to moses from the cloud. so, we know who's in the cloud. from the verses that john wrote, i.e. jn 1:18, we know this could not be God the Father.[/quote]So what are you saying here? Are you suggesting that God the Father doesn't speak to humans?Beats me how you get Jesus out of that. Is it from the word Lord?You surely must take this in a literal sense. I don't. There is much debate on this. I think you don't understand all the things that happened in the wilderness as Israel wanders about. If so then Jesus was a literal stone.If the text said Jesus Christ I might agree. NTL you have a great proof text. The word Christ is a title and not a name.

"If so then Jesus was a literal stone." --- Ohhh, my head hurts.

 

[visionary]

What's so funny?
Scratch may be on to something there

Young) John 1:41 this one doth first find his own brother Simon, and saith to him, `We have found the Messiah/messian <3323>",' (which is, being interpreted, The Anointed/Christ,)

Young) John 4:25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah/messiaV <3323> is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."

Strong's Number G3323 matches the Greek &#924;&#949;&#963;&#963;&#943;&#945;&#962; (Messias), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
3323. Messias of Hebrew origin (4899); the Messias (i.e. Mashiach), or Christ:--Messias.

Daniel 9:25 And thou shall know and thou shall be intelligent/wise from going forth of a Word to return-of and to build-up-of Jerusalem until_an annointed-one/04899 mashiyach, prince/ruler, sevens, seven.........

Daniel 9:26 And after the sevens, sixty and two, he shall be cut off, an annointed one/04899 mashiyach and is nothing to him.

You do know that the part that is in brackets was not in the original manuscript... it was added by some fellow who thought he was being helpful.