Who did Moses chat with?

[visionary]

Um, Lord Lord has nothing to do with Abraham speaking to 2 personhoods.

ok.. why did Abraham do that?

 

[Jase]

I don't know the answer to that one... it is like how many does it take to make "us" in the beginning?

I think you need to learn the origin of Genesis and ancient Hebrew theology. Yahweh was originally part of the Ugaritic pantheon. He was the God of Israel, but one of many gods worshiped by the ancient Hebrews at the time. (They were polytheistic originally). The "us" being referred to is most likely referring to this pantheon of Caananite gods. It was incorporated into the Tanakh by the Hebrews as their theology progressed and they sought to eliminate the other gods, leaving only Yahweh.

Ugarit and the Bible


El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the “father of men”, “creator”, and “creator of the creation”. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament.


Other deities worshipped at Ugarit were El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are applied to Yahweh by the writers of the Old Testament. What this means is that the Hebrew theologians adopted the titles of the Canaanite gods and attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to eliminate them. If Yahweh is all of these there is no need for the Canaanite gods to exist! This process is known as assimilation.

 

[Jase]

ok.. why did Abraham do that?

Do you have the verse in question? Even Jesus stated "Lord Lord" but he gives no indication he's referring to himself and God the Father. It's probably just an emphatic.

Lot's of languages have repeated nouns/pronouns as emphatics. For example, in French, one might say, Moi, Je pense as opposed to just Je pense.

Both phrases mean "I think", but the first one with moi, uses an emphatic to emphasize who the speaker is referring to. In this case, the Moi emphasizes "I".

 

[David64]

I think you need to learn the origin of Genesis and ancient Hebrew theology. Yahweh was originally part of the Ugaritic pantheon. He was the God of Israel, but one of many gods worshiped by the ancient Hebrews at the time. (They were polytheistic originally). The "us" being referred to is most likely referring to this pantheon of Caananite gods. It was incorporated into the Tanakh by the Hebrews as their theology progressed and they sought to eliminate the other gods, leaving only Yahweh.

Ugarit and the Bible


El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the “father of men”, “creator”, and “creator of the creation”. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament.


Other deities worshipped at Ugarit were El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are applied to Yahweh by the writers of the Old Testament. What this means is that the Hebrew theologians adopted the titles of the Canaanite gods and attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to eliminate them. If Yahweh is all of these there is no need for the Canaanite gods to exist! This process is known as assimilation.

I hope you don't believe that rubish.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I hope you don't believe that rubish.

I thought it was pretty interesting myself

 

[visionary]

I highly doubt that God would allow no distinction in the "us"... especially since He is very animate about "other gods" before Him... The "us" of Genesis is told by Moses who got his story directly from God Himself.

 

[David64]

I thought it was pretty interesting myself

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

[Jase]

I highly doubt that God would allow no distinction in the "us"... especially since He is very animate about "other gods" before Him... The "us" of Genesis is told by Moses who got his story directly from God Himself.

Which no one can prove. Most Christians really know nothing about the origins of the Torah and how much influence surrounding cultures had on Hebrew and Jewish thought and mysticism.

 

[Jase]

I hope you don't believe that rubish.

Can you prove it's rubbish, since it's a well known fact Judaism's foundations were polytheistic?

The Birth and Evolution of Judaism: The Pre-Mosaic Stage

Early Hebrew religion was polytheistic; the curious plural form of the name of God, Elohim rather than El, leads them to believe that the original Hebrew religion involved several gods. This plural form, however, can be explained as a "royal" plural. Several other aspects of the account of Hebrew religion in Genesis also imply a polytheistic faith.

— The earliest Hebrew religion was animistic, that is, the Hebrews seemed worship forces of nature that dwelled in natural objects.

— As a result, much of early Hebrew religion had a number of practices that fall into the category of magic: scapegoat sacrifice and various forms of imitative magic, all of which are preserved in the text of Genesis .

— Early Hebrew religion eventually became anthropomorphic, that is, god or the gods took human forms; in later Hebrew religion, Yahweh becomes a figure that transcends the human and material worlds. Individual tribes probably worshipped different gods; there is no evidence in Genesis that anything like a national God existed in the time of the patriarchs.

 

[Jase]

dbl post

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
I thought it was pretty interesting myself

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

My bro Paul agrees with that

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

KJV) Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung/rubbish that I may win Christ,

 

[from scratch]

Well I'm back. Nice to see who missed me. Now I'll spend a few days catching up I guess. My puter died. So I got a new one and wow the changes. Every time I hit a button I have to authorize something or other.

 

[from scratch]

He spoke to all three, when you address God you address everyone; the father, the son and the spirit.

How is that? Wouldn't that be saying that The Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit? If so wouldn't that be denying the trinity?

 

[visionary]

How is that? Wouldn't that be saying that The Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit? If so wouldn't that be denying the trinity?

Hi everyone

 

[from scratch]

At first the scripture say "the angel of the LORD" - messenger of God (v2) but then when Moses turned aside to see God called unto him. So was the angel (messenger) sent to start the "flame of fire" to get Moses' attention so God could/would speak to him?

Exodus 3:4 . . . . God called unto him out of the midst of the bush. . . . .

3:6. . .I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. . . . .

Hmm! I don't know. The angel seems to have appeared within the flame because it says appeared in a flame.

Then Moses said he would look at this curious thingn that seemed to be abnormal. IOW his attention was piqued.

Who called out to Moses the angel or God. There seems to be a change of characters in the mix. I don't see where the angel of the Lord spoke anything.

Who is the God of his fathers? An angel? None of the references I found say anything about an angel being the god of their fathers. Every reference I found clearly indicates God the Father as that God. I didn't get that Jesus was that Entity either. The verses I have in mind are: Deut 1:21, 6:3, 12:1, 27:3 and Acts 7:32.

Do you have anything showing that the angel was God the Father or God the Son (Jesus). There are 17 other verses that say God of Abraham but not a single lone of them seem to mention anything about Jesus. There are 36 other verses that mention God and Abraham but none of them indicate Jesus.

 

[from scratch]

Well, since Moses is part of the Old Testament, there was no such thing in the Tanakh regarding any Trinity or Jesus, so the only scriptural conclusion is God.

Will you please identify the Us in Genesis 1:26? Thanks. I think it is the trinity and not God and something else besides God which would include the two other Memebers of the trinity. The Septuagint transcript changes the Us to He, I think.

 

[from scratch]

That was a vision not reality although it is a forgone conclusion that both Moses and Elijah will be in God's Kingdom when Christ returns.


Actually He was not the Son of God yet He was the Word, the one that was with God and was also God from eternity.

So my question is Who was Jesus' Father? I thought the Scripture clearly says that God the Father is in Luke 1. Isn't that correct? Did Jesus only become the Son of God after His birth? Remember many things were a mystery (not revealed) before the NC came into existence.

 

[from scratch]

When you consider the narrative through the lens of the NT, it seems clear that it was the Son. The Lord - kurios, the "IAM" - ego eimi. These titles are assumed by Jesus Christ and it seems clear that the application of the titles to Him Himself shows that it was indeed Him in the OT.

I'm sorry but I need much more to understand what you're saying.

 

[from scratch]

The trinity has nothing to do with this.

Really? That is interesting. I would ask why do you say this?

Jesus told us that no one had ever seen the Father or heard His voice.

Where? I donlt see any Scripture. At least your statement acknowledges that Jesus isn't The Father.

The Word, the Spoksman of the godhead, was the one dealing with the people of the OT.[/qupte]I'm looking for some Scripture to basck this up. Do you have any? I don't see them.

Jesus claimed to be the I Am of the OT and is said to be that Rock that followed them in the wilderness.

Where is this? John 8:58? If so please explain the statement made there. I think this is merely a statement that He existed then and not saying that He is the I AM THAT I AM. Quite a difference there.

This is sabbath school stuff for little ones.

Great then you must have some Scripture to support this indoctrination. Or didn't they teach sabbath school from the Bible? It is possible.

 

[from scratch]

From Scratch, Patience 7 has it right. I will expand on her comments. Taken from my web-site, www.seekfirstwisdom.com

The Greek Definite Article, "The, this, that," originally a demonstrative pronoun, but in Attic Greek, and in later usage mostly a prepositive article, (the," meaning the one and only, no other.)

1. As a demonstrative pronoun, "this, that."

1-a. Skimpily once in the words cited from the poet Aratus, Acts 17:28, "For we are also his offspring," for of this one (him,) we are also the offspring."

Jesus in the O.T. is at times referred to as, "The Angel of the LORD," or "Angel of Jehovah." Meaning He is revealing the will of His Father, as the #1 messenger. This appearance is called a, "Theophany," meaning "God appearing."

If you see, "An angel of the Lord," An, being an indefinite article, meaning more than one, it is making reference to other angels, or people.

The angel of God, is a title and office of Jesus, when He would temporally manifest Himself in a visible form in the O.T. Example:

Moses at the burning bush, Ex.3:2, "The angel of the LORD appeared unto him = (Moses) in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush."

Ver. 4, now the angel of the LORD is called, "The LORD saw that he (Moses) turned aside, and see this great sight."

Then Scripture states, that it was God who called unto him = (Moses) out of the midst of the bush.

Then the voice said in

ver.5, "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Ver.7, "The LORD said." ver.8, "I am come down."

ver.14, "God said unto Moses, I Am that I Am."

Read through chap.4. So in this one example of the burning bush, the angel is called, The angel of the LORD, the LORD, God, and, I Am, that I Am. These are all offices, titles, and attributes of our Lord Jesus.

The LORD appeared to Abram many times. In Gen.21, Hagar the mother of Ishmael heard the voice of, "the angel of God," who said, "I will make him = (Ishmael) a great nation."

Judg.13:3, Zorah the mother of Sampson, had an encounter with the angel of the LORD. Also Judg.13:11-13-22-23, "Manoah (the father of Sampson) said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God." Then his wife said, "if the LORD were pleased to kill us, He would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands."

ver.19, where the angel of the LORD ate their offering with them. These are only a few examples of those who had physical, up close encounters with Jesus, "The angel of the LORD," in the O.T.

Hope this helps you.

Phil LaSpino

Strange stuff. Sorry but my version of the Bible doesn't say what yours says in 32:4 for instance. What version are you using?