Who are the true Israelites

[keras]

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16

Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20
They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, because the people who heard the Gospel and who responded, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.

The prophecy of Caiaphas: John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10
Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed; Jesus, but an originally chosen, natural-born Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.

John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many. This is a direct reference to Christians.

The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God, the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded.

Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction?
Jeremiah 18:1-12

These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27 Ref: logostelos.info

 

[Dan1988]

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16

Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20
They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, because the people who heard the Gospel and who responded, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.

The prophecy of Caiaphas: John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10
Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed; Jesus, but an originally chosen, natural-born Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.

John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many. This is a direct reference to Christians.

The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God, the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded.

Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction?
Jeremiah 18:1-12

These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27 Ref: logostelos.info

Do you believe that those vessels made for destruction can be saved, or do you believe they will never come to the saving knowledge of the Gospel.

Most Christians believe that those who are not of the elect can still be saved if they choose to believe the Gospel. They believe that God offered salvation to every person, so salvation depends on if they choose to believe or reject the gospel.

90% of Christian Churches hold to the view that salvation comes down to the individuals choice, very few believe in predestination or election. They dismiss all the scriptures which speak about God's elect, they say it's simply referring to Gods ability to look in to the future.

The church is divided into two camps over this question, Arminius and Calvin are famous for their ability to explain the the two opposing views in great detail.

 

[Dave-W]

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16

Replacement theology.

Read Romans 11 again where it describes Israel (in New Covenant times) as "enemies of the gospel."

 

[Dave-W]

The church is divided into two camps over this question, Arminius and Calvin are famous for their ability to explain the the two opposing views in great detail.

And both were using the same wrong approach to the question.

They used abstract western logic from Aristotle (a pagan) rather than Hebrew Block logic which is relational and can hold opposing situations as being simultaneously true.

Hint: the bible is written from the latter mindset.

 

[Dan1988]

And both were using the same wrong approach to the question.

They used abstract western logic from Aristotle (a pagan) rather than Hebrew Block logic which is relational and can hold opposing situations as being simultaneously true.

Hint: the bible is written from the latter mindset.

I don't quite get it, how can the two opposing views be simultaneously true. They are in stark contradiction to each other, so only one can be true.

I know most Christians sweep this question under the carpet or put it in the too hard basket, because it demands to much brain strain to get our head around it. I agree with a friend at Church who said, God only reveals the answer to His elect.

 

[Dave-W]

I don't quite get it, how can the two opposing views be simultaneously true. They are in stark contradiction to each other, so only one can be true.

No, it takes a long time to retrain your mind to think differently. We are trained from infancy to understand the world in a certain way, but the bible is written from an entirely different perspective. One that does not make sense to our western mindsets.

 

[Petros2015]

They used abstract western logic from Aristotle (a pagan) rather than Hebrew Block logic which is relational and can hold opposing situations as being simultaneously true.

Interesting. I had not come across the Block logic reference before.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/language_philosophy.html

While the Modern Western person thinks and arranges events chronologically (Step Logic), the Ancient Hebrews thought and arranged events according to action and purpose (Block Logic). Let me demonstrate with the following paragraph from a western step logic perspective.

"I got up and ate breakfast and read the newspaper. I then drove to work. While at work I read yesterday's reports. At noon I walked across the street for lunch. While there I read a magazine. Back at work I read my emails. After work I drove home and had dinner."

Now let me rearrange this paragraph in block form, the way the Hebrews would have conveyed this same story.

"I drove to work and walked across the street and I drove home. I ate breakfast and I ate lunch and I ate dinner. I read the newspaper and I read the reports and I read a magazine and I read my emails."

 

[Dave L]

A different way to answer the question stems from Israel's history. Circumcision made one a covenant member of Abraham's seed. At the time over 300 servants and their families became Abraham's covenant seed through circumcision when only Ishmael was his blood relative.

And God told Abraham, any not circumcised were to be cut off. This meant they were not his covenant seed no matter if they were related or not.

So when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, he broke off all physical unbelieving members of Israel. This left only the believers in Christ who like Abraham had circumcised hearts.

By invalidating circumcision, the Only biblical Israel today is Christendom. And the State of Israel is nothing more than the gentiles, calling themselves Jews, who trample down Jerusalem until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

Paul has the unbelievers broken off from Israel in Romans 11. And reattached only through faith in Christ.

 

[Dan1988]

No, it takes a long time to retrain your mind to think differently. We are trained from infancy to understand the world in a certain way, but the bible is written from an entirely different perspective. One that does not make sense to our western mindsets.

Our pastor teaches us that the scriptures are quite easy to understand. The Bible was written in a way that the average person can fully understand if he has the Holy Spirit indwelling him. If he doesn't have the Holy Spirit, then all scripture is foolishness to him.

God is pleased to reveal the meaning of His Word to simple uneducated people, while the greatest minds on earth cannot get their minds around simple Biblical truth.

I have watched debates with Christian theologians and some of the greatest atheist scientists in the world, it's amazing how they can't embrace simple concepts. They are baffled by the scriptures, they are utter foolishness to them

 

[FenderTL5]

from St. Paul's Letter to the Galatians 3:23-29; 4:1-5

Brethren, before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith.

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave, though he is the owner of all the estate; but he is under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father. So with us; when we were children, we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe. But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

 

[BABerean2]

Replacement theology.

Read Romans 11 again where it describes Israel (in New Covenant times) as "enemies of the gospel."

We have often heard the charge of "Replacement Theology" on this forum.

The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".
On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts of the Apostles 2:36. On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ.
The Gentiles were grafted into the Church several years later.
Since that time the Church continues to be made up of all races of people.


We find two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11. Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of both Israelite and Gentile branches. Paul begins the chapter with two groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5 by describing the Baal worshippers and the 7,000 who remained faithful to God during the time of Elijah. Paul said a faithful "remnant" existed during his time. All of the Israelite branches were not broken off of the Olive tree. Paul ends the chapter in the same way. One group of Israelites were the "elect" who accepted Christ and another group were "enemies" of the Gospel, who rejected Christ. All of the Israelites were not "partially blinded". Some were blinded and some were not. Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the church in the passage.

Some have replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

They have replaced the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

They have replaced the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26.



If we want modern Jews to be saved, they need to hear about "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of the Messiah's arrival in Daniel chapter 9. These three passages from the Hebrew scriptures prove that the baby born in a manger is the promised Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. How many times have we heard this simple three-part message on Christian television?

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[Dave-W]

If we want modern Jews to be saved, they need to hear about "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of the Messiah's arrival in Daniel chapter 9.

My denomination emphasizes those things all the time. We have given away thousands of copies of this book in several languages:


https://www.amazon.com/Isaiah-Expla...pID=51irQB8egRL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

 

[BABerean2]

My denomination emphasizes those things all the time. We have given away thousands of copies of this book in several languages:


https://www.amazon.com/Isaiah-Expla...pID=51irQB8egRL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

That is fantastic. Your church body should be applauded for that effort.

If that message is combined with Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the New Covenant understanding of Daniel chapter 9, it will be even more effective.

The modern Church's efforts to take the Gospel to the Jewish people has been pitiful, overall.
Thank God for those such as yourself.

My wife and I have contributed to Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah for sometime now.

Sadly, Pastor John Hagee and a few others are now teaching that modern Jews do not need Christ, because they already have a covenant with God. He has taken the Two Peoples of God doctrine to the extreme.
The Vatican has a similar policy.
Hagee's version of Dual Covenant Theology has been very destructive to taking the Gospel to the Jewish People.
He has ignored Paul's warning in Galatians 1:6-9.

Any form of Dual Covenant Theology is destructive to the New Covenant Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thousands of young people in the modern State of Israel are now rejecting the doctrine of the modern Pharisees, and are coming to Christ. The ministry of Zev Porat in Tel Aviv has been very successful. ONE for ISRAEL is a Bible college in Israel, with both Arab and Israeli students. Their impact through YouTube and social media has been tremendous during the last couple of years.

The battle for the souls of modern Jews continues today, just as it did during the first century.

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[DavidPT]

Replacement theology.

Read Romans 11 again where it describes Israel (in New Covenant times) as "enemies of the gospel."

Actually though, there are two parts to that Israel. The part of Israel that wasn't blinded, and the part that was. The part that wasn't blinded are not the enemies, it is those that were blinded being the enemies. I don't know if this would add up to replacement theology in this case though?

As to saved Gentiles, I don't see where they are replacing any of Israel. I simply see them being added to the Israel that was not blinded. I'm not even certain why that has to add up to replacement theology in that case? Who is being replaced? Even those of Israel who were blinded can be added back in if they remain not in unbelief. Does that make it replacement theology in their case as well? After all, being added back in for no longer being in unbelief, that is no different than the way Gentiles are added in as well.

 

[Dave-W]

That is fantastic. Your church body should be applauded for that effort.

If that message is combined with Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the New Covenant understanding of Daniel chapter 9, it will be even more effective.

The modern Church's efforts to take the Gospel to the Jewish people has been pitiful, overall.
Thank God for those such as yourself.

We had a recent report from the outreach director in NZ. They reach out to young Israelis hiking the South Island mountains. In the last 2-3 years they have had over 2000 accept Yeshua/ Jesus as Lord and Savior.

And that is just NZ.

 

[keras]

Do you believe that those vessels made for destruction can be saved, or do you believe they will never come to the saving knowledge of the Gospel.

Being made for destruction, means just that. Sad, but it is God's choice.

The church is divided into two camps over this question, Arminius and Calvin are famous for their ability to explain the the two opposing views in great detail.

All the longwinded and convoluted expositions on the subject of Election and Chosen, are overridden by; Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Replacement theology.

Read Romans 11 again where it describes Israel (in New Covenant times) as "enemies of the gospel."

BaBerean has replied to your false claim of 'replacement theology'. That old accusation is made by those whose false hope of a 'rapture to heaven' is destroyed by the truth of there being only One People of God, as there always has been, thru all the ages.

I suggest that you read Romans 11 again. There are many clearly stated truths there.
Paul, or the translators are often not clear about which Israel is meant, Romans 11:26 for example, refers to the whole of Israel, which as verse 25 says; includes the Gentiles; then admitted in their full strength. Israel; in verse 25, meaning just the Jewish people, have been partially hardened against the Gospel, as they are today. Only a remnant of the Jews will finally, be saved. Romans 9:27

 

[Chinchilla]

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16

Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20
They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, because the people who heard the Gospel and who responded, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.

The prophecy of Caiaphas: John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10
Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed; Jesus, but an originally chosen, natural-born Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.

John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many. This is a direct reference to Christians.

The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God, the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded.

Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction?
Jeremiah 18:1-12

These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27 Ref: logostelos.info

Who are the fake Israelites ?
Revelation 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[keras]

Who are the fake Israelites ?
Revelation 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Isn't Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 plain enough? Who is it that say they are Jews?
In John 8:41-47, Jesus says: their father is the devil.

 

[Chinchilla]

Isn't Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 plain enough? Who is it that say they are Jews?
In John 8:41-47, Jesus says: their father is the devil.

I don't understand.
There were Jews and Gentiles as two groups of people , then according to you there is no more Jews and Gentiles but Church and Gentiles .

So Fake Jews must be Gentiles is this logic correct ?

 

[BABerean2]

Who are the fake Israelites ?
Revelation 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (See 1 Corinthians 3:16)

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