Who are the sheep in John 10?

[bbbbbbb]

You know God saved other people than Jews in the OT?

How many Japanese folks did God save in the OT?

 

[zoidar]

How many Japanese folks did God save in the OT?

Do you know there are around 100 million (maybe more) Christians in China?

 

[BBAS 64]

The debt was owed to God (the Father) because He demanded that sin be paid for. Although most times it was paid for by the blood of animals, the final payment for all sin was Jesus' blood.

Good Day, Pescador

Would you say the payment was acceptable to the Father, and sufficient to cover the debt that was owed so that it was paid in full.

In Him,

Bill

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you know there are around 100 million (maybe more) Christians in China?

Of course I know that, but you are avoiding my question.

You asserted that "God saved other people than Jews in the OT". I did not ask you how many Christians are reported by some rather sketchy organizations are in China. I asked you specifically how many folks in Japan were saved during the OT period. Approximately how many do you think were saved?

 

[fhansen]

It just struck me! I can't believe I missed it! The sheep in John 10 are all those that know Jesus. He is saying it straight out in:

V. 14
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

"I know my sheep and my sheep know me."

V. 27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me

"My sheep hear my voice since they know me"

What then about v. 26
But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

"But you do not believe because you don't know me."

V. 37-38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.

"believe my works so that you may know Me and be my sheep."

Yes, the Christian faith is all about the knowledge of God, coming to know Him, as revealed by God the Son. And so coming to believe in, trust & hope in, and finally to love Him.
"No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:34

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Some hear the voice and respond, while other do not, generally out of pride/fear of what others think as John 12:42, for example, describes.

 

[zoidar]

Of course I know that, but you are avoiding my question.

You asserted that "God saved other people than Jews in the OT". I did not ask you how many Christians are reported by some rather sketchy organizations are in China. I asked you specifically how many folks in Japan were saved during the OT period. Approximately how many do you think were saved?

The Bible does not cover the story of the Japanese people.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Bible does not cover the story of the Japanese people.

Of course not. Nor does it ever cover the salvation of heathen nations during the OT period. Thus, it is idle speculation that heathen nations were saved by God during the OT period. What we do know is that God chose His people, Israel, and made a covenant with them on Mount Sinai to be His people with the condition that they kept the terms of the covenant, aka the Law. There were a handful of individuals such as Rahab and her household as well as Ruth who united with Israel, but they are great exceptions to the rule such that some groups such as the Gibeonites were excluded entirely even though they submitted themselves completely to Israel.

 

[zoidar]

Of course not. Nor does it ever cover the salvation of heathen nations during the OT period. Thus, it is idle speculation that heathen nations were saved by God during the OT period. What we do know is that God chose His people, Israel, and made a covenant with them on Mount Sinai to be His people with the condition that they kept the terms of the covenant, aka the Law. There were a handful of individuals such as Rahab and her household as well as Ruth who united with Israel, but they are great exceptions to the rule such that some groups such as the Gibeonites were excluded entirely even though they submitted themselves completely to Israel.

Oh yes. God's love and mercy is shown in the fact that Christ died for us. God willingly sacrificed himself to be with his own people. If that's not love and mercy, I dont know what is. You know when it comes to God choosing the Jews nobody beats an eye or calls anything unfair. If all we had in the Old Testament were promises to save the Kewish people and that's all there was than nobody would blink an eye but when God reveals that his elect extends past the Jews and throughout the whole world people get offended.

God is just, loving, and merciful all at the same time. Nobody knows just exactly how many people are with God right now at this moment. Nobody knows the final number that will be in heaven just that it's a number greater than the stars and a number greater than any man can count from across the whole world! I don't know about you but that shows God's love and mercy to us. Because we were ALL guilty and God set us free! God never abandons or forsakes his people and he loves all of us equally. That is love my friend!

Bb, the people of Nineveh?

What I'm saying there is a difference of electing God's nation Israel, than elect individuals for salvation, huge difference! That is one reason people aren't upset with God choosing Israel, in response to Neo.

The reason God chose Israel was to bless the whole world through this nation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Bb, the people of Nineveh?

What I'm saying there is a difference of electing God's nation Israel, than elect individuals for salvation, huge difference! That is one reason people aren't upset with God choosing Israel, in response to Neo.

The reason God chose Israel was to bless the whole world through this nation.

Ninevah was spared destruction, but never was extended the covenant God had made with His people Israel.

 

[zoidar]

Ninevah was spared destruction, but never was extended the covenant God had made with His people Israel.

Are you saying the people of Nineveh repented, but none were saved to eternal life?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Are you saying the people of Nineveh repented, but none were saved to eternal life?

Absolutely. Repentance (metanoia in Greek) means to change (meta) one's mind (noia). The folks in Ninevah changed their minds in regard to the message Jonah preached in regard to their sin. As a result the utter destruction of Ninevah which Jonah had prophesied based on their wickedness, did not happen. Jonah was fed up with God who had made him into a false prophet, but God showed the same mercy to the people of Ninevah as He did to Jonah, causing a plant to spring up to shade him from the sun, but withering it the next day.

God saves people from destruction daily, including multitudes who will never exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ. God saved me from scarlet fever when I was a toddler, but i did not come to saving faith in Jesus Christ for another sixteen years.

 

[zoidar]

Absolutely. Repentance (metanoia in Greek) means to change (meta) one's mind (noia). The folks in Ninevah changed their minds in regard to the message Jonah preached in regard to their sin. As a result the utter destruction of Ninevah which Jonah had prophesied based on their wickedness, did not happen. Jonah was fed up with God who had made him into a false prophet, but God showed the same mercy to the people of Ninevah as He did to Jonah, causing a plant to spring up to shade him from the sun, but withering it the next day.

God saves people from destruction daily, including multitudes who will never exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ. God saved me from scarlet fever when I was a toddler, but i did not come to saving faith in Jesus Christ for another sixteen years.

IMO mudded theology and even muddier reasoning. Did you repent as a toddler?

I think the main point of the story of Jonah is that God saves (to eternal life) whoever repents, Jew or Greek. It was like that in the OT and it's like that in the NT.

Luke 11
32 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here

 

[bbbbbbb]

IMO mudded theology and even muddier reasoning. Did you repent as a toddler?

I think the main point of the story of Jonah is that God saves (to eternal life) whoever repents, Jew or Greek. It was like that in the OT and it's like that in the NT.

Luke 11
32 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here

I certainly did not repent as a toddler. The fact that God saved me from scarlet fever had absolutely nothing to do with anything I did. It was God's mercy, pure and simple, that saved me from physical death. It also had nothing to do with my justly-merited spiritual death. God spared my physical life, that is all.

In the same way the Ninevites were spared from physical death at that time. In due time they returned to their wicked ways and God totally eliminated them as a city and as a nation. There is not the slightest hint in the book of Jonah of spiritual salvation being preached on the condition of repentance.

 

[zoidar]

I certainly did not repent as a toddler. The fact that God saved me from scarlet fever had absolutely nothing to do with anything I did. It was God's mercy, pure and simple, that saved me from physical death. It also had nothing to do with my justly-merited spiritual death. God spared my physical life, that is all.

In the same way the Ninevites were spared from physical death at that time. In due time they returned to their wicked ways and God totally eliminated them as a city and as a nation. There is not the slightest hint in the book of Jonah of spiritual salvation being preached on the condition of repentance.

In the same way ...

Read Luke 11 again.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the same way ...

Read Luke 11 again.

In the same way ...

Read Luke 11 again.

There are enormous numbers of records of God's salvation in a physical sense only throughout scripture. The book of Psalms is full of them. The exodus from Egypt is absolutely filled with them. The fact that the multitude that left Egypt were deeply unbelieving and unrepentant is evident multiple times, not the least in making a golden calf to worship while Moses was up on Mount Sinai getting the Ten Commandments. Do you think that each individual of that multitude is in heaven now?

 

[zoidar]

So they can be judged. Notice Jesus said you don’t believe me.


He said: (1) 37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;“

Then (2) 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

They could not deny the works Jesus did was from Heaven from God yet they still did not believe Who He was, the Messiah and Son of God.

Knowing they did not believe Him but could believe the works because they witnessed the works with their own eyes and ears, they are set in disbelief and judged already. These are the same people in the Good Shepherd discourse Jesus said the following:

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Good day Redleg,

Went back and looked at this "old" thread.

I understand your idea, but Jesus says "believe the works" not "you believe the works". So these jews didn't believe the works, whatever now Jesus is referring to. It's not clear whether these Jews believed the works were from God or not. It doesn't matter. The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus tells them to believe something they don't, whether it's that his works are from God or what the works testify about him, so they will understand he is the Messiah.

 

[redleghunter]

Good day Redleg,

Went back and looked at this "old" thread.

I understand your idea, but Jesus says "believe the works" not "you believe the works". So these jews didn't believe the works, whatever now Jesus is referring to. It's not clear whether these Jews believed the works were from God or not. It doesn't matter. The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus tells them to believe something they don't, whether it's that his works are from God or what the works testify about him, so they will understand he is the Messiah.

I think you are still missing the point.

This conversation Jesus is having with the Jews opposed to Him is about Who He is.

 

[zoidar]

This conversation Jesus is having with the Jews opposed to Him is about Who He is.

Yes! Agree! But what is Jesus doing to make them believe he is the Messiah? "Believe that I do the works of my Father, see that they testify about that I'm the Messiah!"