Who’s choice is it?

[FreeinChrist]

If the Father does draw someone do they always come to faith in Jesus?

God bless

No. I believe there are those who experience the calling of the Holy Spirit and resist. That would explain the passage in Hebrews 6 (opps, that is opening a can of worms). I believe there are those who hear the message, feel the Spirit moving in a service, may even confess a belief, and still end up rejecting Christ after a time. I don't believe they were ever saved. But a verse states that God wants all to come to salvation, so it is available to them if they will respond to the Holy Spirit. A person cannot claim - "But I never had a chance!"

I do believe that God knew the end from the beginning, and knows who will come to faith and who won't. It isn't that He picks this person to be saved and that person not to be saved, just that He is all knowing.

 

[Dr Dex]

Whoops! My last post was not intended for Don, but for orthedoxy.

 

[Dr Dex]

No. I believe there are those who experience the calling of the Holy Spirit and resist.

Speaking of John 6...

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37)

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus ties it all together. Those that look to the Son are those that the Father has drawn. These are those that the Father has given the Son. All the Father draws come. All that come are raised.

Yet another reason why God gets the glory for our salvation.

 

[FreeinChrist]

John 6 is a favorite chapter of mine. I agree that all who come to the Jesus were drawn by God, and that those who are given to Jesus will come to Him.

I believe it is in Isaiah where we read that God looks to the heart of a person, knows his thoughts and desires.
I firmly believe that one is draw by God, and when a person claims to believe in Jesus, God looks into their heart and mind and knows if it is a true confession of belief or not. If true, He gives them to Christ who will not lose them. Jesus gives them eternal life, raising us up on the last day.

However, I do not see that all who are experiencing the drawing of God (Holy Spirit) come to Jesus. The verse does not say that - just that those who do come to Christ only do it because they were drawn by God. The parable of the soils points this out , IMHO. Some hear the word, and for awhile respond, but then fall away. I believe they were still being drawn, but they reject. It's that free will that God gives us. Shows that we can really mess up when we try to use our own effort and reasoning.

 

[Blackhawk]

Hey Bh. If you and I were speaking of this issue I would not be so adamant because I understand that you see God as the benefactor of faith and belief as well as salvation. However, in the midst of many Christians I am forced to be more guarded and, thus, more adamant.

I understand. Know that I do believe that I would not have believed or had faith without God giving me that faith. We had many dicussions of this in the past where I was on the other side but not too long ago God showed me (gradually then all of a sudden) the truth of reformed doctrine. I do ask that you understand though that I am kind of new to being reformed and am having some difficuties making sure my lingo is displaying exactly what I mean. and I think we both (just as everyone else) have troubles understanding exactly how God regenerates us. So take it easy on me.

In deference to you I will merely say that I feel it would be akin to putting a new suit on a corpse. If the person is still dead when God gives them faith they are merely a dead person with faith..

But a dead person can't have faith. One has to be alive to have faith. A dead person will never choose to believe in God nor put their trust in him as their lord, master, and God. One has to be fully regenerated in order to be saved. If they are regenerated then they will be saved. They are always together and never apart. One cannot be saved nor have faith without God making them alive. So what I am saying is having faith is a natural outgrowth of regeneration and can't be without full regeneration. So God gives man faith through regenerating him so that he can see and have that faith which is irresistable. I guess I see being regenrated as a change in a person so that one can see God and one can want to serve him. I think this comes about when God reveals himself to them in a special way so that one can see Him and once one sees God one can't do anythig but put their faith in him. Now does God change us or does he onl reveal himself to us in a special way? I think that through God revealing himself to us we are changed. So it is not so much that he changes us so that he can be seen by us as much as he is reealed to us and thus we are changed and made anew. I do not think God reveals himself to everyone in the same special way but ot all he does reveal himself to in that way are saved.

I guess it comes down to is God revealing himself to everyone in the same way and that he must change us first so that we can see him or does God reveal himself in a special way to some and thus regenerate those and only those tat he reveals himself to in that way. I guess in some ways it is two ways of saying the same thing but maybe not.

You see, "faith" is something. It isn't just a feeling. Think about it. When someone speaks of your great faith in the Lord what are they really referring to, the things you feel or the things you do? Now, before the deluge of faith alone vs. faith and works discussions get started let me say that I am merely making a point. Our "death" in our sins and trespasses is more than just "no faith." It is a complete lack of desire to serve the Lord in obedience. His monergistic work of "making you alive" is more than just enlightening you to His truth. He makes of us a new creation. That creation, while different from Adam and Eve in a very substantial way, is akin to them in nature. Denying the Truth of God means denying ourselves. God now lives in us and we can no more deny that then we can deny our own existence...

I agree. I think it comes through God revealing himself to us in a special way and this we are a new creation. I guess I do not think I think that we are changed before God can be revealed. I think that God is revealed to us and thus we are changed. That we are made a new creation through a glimpse at our Lord Jesus Christ. But do not think it is something I do but that Christ does in me.

I think the differences between your views and mine center around your distinction between salvation and regeneration. While I agree that they are separate in essence they are actually parts of the same piece. I see a regenerate person as saved because all regenerate people are saved. I see a regenerate person as a believer because all regenerate people believe, though in varying degrees. Therefore, in some ways, true belief is salvation because God accomplishes our regeneration and our salvation through faith, through our belief. As I said, these may, in theory, be broken down into separate pieces but I think it unnecessary to do so to form a biblically accurate point of view. So long as we acknowledge that our belief, our very saving faith, is a product of God's efficacious grace rather than some "island of righteousness" that remains in us after the Fall we will be on sure and solid theological ground.

God bless,
Don

On the last part very true. God is the author and finisher of our salvation and faith. And know that I only broke regeneration and salvation apart because it makes it easier to speak about. I the senses that you have described they are the same. But in order to understand them better I broke them apart. And since you brought James up I have to say this is much like my view of James 2. We hav works because of our faith although all who are saved will have works. So it is crazy to think of a christian who has no works but it is the faith alone is tha saves. Like that it is our faith that saves and not regeneration. However in order to be saved we mus be regenerated. So it is crazy to say that we are saved and not regenerated but regeneration alone is not salvation. I might be making disctinctions that might not have to be made but I think it clears up why one has to believe and trust in God before they are saved. Why there is a human element to salvation although God does this element through me. That it is not wow I believed so I am saved but a humbling thought that I only believed because God gave that belief to me as a gift. But again if we seperate things before our belief we are not saved however all who are regenerate wil lbe believe and will be saved. Nothing can take them out of the God's hand ever. I think that nothing can stop the regenerated person from believing because nothing can stop God from making it occur through us.

 

[Reformationist]

Whoops! My last post was not intended for Don, but for orthedoxy.

LOL! I was wondering about that when I read it. I was thinking, "Wait a minute...I completely agree with this."

God bless,
Don

 

[Reformationist]

No. I believe there are those who experience the calling of the Holy Spirit and resist.

Just for clarification, the reformed view of God's call is that there are, in fact, two separate calls. One being the general call to repentence that is given to all men. This is what carnal man resists and rejects. Then, there is a sovereign, irresistable, inward call to repentence given to God's elect that accomplishes that for which God purposes it.

I'm curious though, if you think God's purpose in sending His call was for every individual to accept it don't you think that God, being omniscient, set Himself up to be eternally disappointed? Obviously God knew that many would not heed that call, right? If so, why call them in the first place? Do you think it would be unfair if God didn't call every individual?

But a verse states that God wants all to come to salvation, so it is available to them if they will respond to the Holy Spirit. A person cannot claim - "But I never had a chance!"

I agree that no one can claim they didn't have the chance but I am curious what you believe is the reason that some respond in acceptance and some reject that same call. Obviously it's not the call. Everyone got that. Why did some respond to it one way and others another way?

I do believe that God knew the end from the beginning, and knows who will come to faith and who won't. It isn't that He picks this person to be saved and that person not to be saved, just that He is all knowing.

So God just knows but doesn't do anything to ensure that anyone actually is saved? Was it possible that everyone could exercise their "free wills" and no one would have accepted? Was it ever a possibility that everyone could have accepted?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Speaking of John 6...

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37)

?No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

For my Father?s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus ties it all together. Those that look to the Son are those that the Father has drawn. These are those that the Father has given the Son. All the Father draws come. All that come are raised.

Yet another reason why God gets the glory for our salvation.

I agree completely. Here's another:

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

It doesn't say that Christ's sheep may follow Him. It says they do.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I firmly believe that one is draw by God, and when a person claims to believe in Jesus, God looks into their heart and mind and knows if it is a true confession of belief or not. If true, He gives them to Christ who will not lose them. Jesus gives them eternal life, raising us up on the last day.

So God gives them to Jesus because He sees that their confession is true? How does a creation that is dead in it's trespasses and sins make a true confession of faith in the Lord? The natural mind is at enmity with God. Their natural nature is to rebell against God. I'm curious how you think it glorifies God to say that our being given to God is a result of our own righteousness.

However, I do not see that all who are experiencing the drawing of God (Holy Spirit) come to Jesus. The verse does not say that - just that those who do come to Christ only do it because they were drawn by God. The parable of the soils points this out , IMHO. Some hear the word, and for awhile respond, but then fall away. I believe they were still being drawn, but they reject. It's that free will that God gives us. Shows that we can really mess up when we try to use our own effort and reasoning.

What about John 10:27? It says God's sheep DO hear His voice and they DO follow Him? Everything you seem to be professing places the credit for our salvation squarely on the shoulders of the person who makes the right decision. Why do some make the right decision and some don't? If you claim the difference to be found in the creation then you boast in the creation.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Bh,

Nicely said. I don't think you use the wrong lingo for expressing the Truth of the reformed faith at all. In fact, you sound very well versed in reformed doctrines. There's no reason to "take it easy on you" because you are a wonderful example of a Christian who puts God's glory first in every aspect of their theology.

God bless,
Don

 

[Benedicta00]

The natural mind is at enmity with God. Their natural nature is to rebell against God

Where is the biblical evidence that this is true?

 

[Blackhawk]

Where is the biblical evidence that this is true?

Genesis 3 is a good one.

and


Rom 3:10-18
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
(NAU)

Personally I do not like that naturally man does not seek after God and is an enemy of God but it is the truth. Praise God for his mercy to us who so clearly deserve nothing but wrath.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Just for clarification, the reformed view of God's call is that there are, in fact, two separate calls. One being the general call to repentence that is given to all men. This is what carnal man resists and rejects. Then, there is a sovereign, irresistable, inward call to repentence given to God's elect that accomplishes that for which God purposes it.

I'm curious though, if you think God's purpose in sending His call was for every individual to accept it don't you think that God, being omniscient, set Himself up to be eternally disappointed? Obviously God knew that many would not heed that call, right? If so, why call them in the first place? Do you think it would be unfair if God didn't call every individual?

I believe God's desire is for all to accept.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
I believe Jesus died for the sins of the world (John 3:16 for one). And I believe that it break's God's heart to see folks refuse to believe. I don't think it is a matter of fairness really, but that we are created in His image and we have to make the choice.

I agree that no one can claim they didn't have the chance but I am curious what you believe is the reason that some respond in acceptance and some reject that same call. Obviously it's not the call. Everyone got that. Why did some respond to it one way and others another way?

Freewill is involved. Obstinate natures. Romans 1 tells us of those that there are some that "God gave them over to degrading passions.."

So God just knows but doesn't do anything to ensure that anyone actually is saved?

I believe that God draws, looks into the heart and mind - qualifying us, gives us to Jesus (as described in an earlier post), and that He forgives, cleanses, renews, regenerates, spiritually circumcizes us, adopts us as children, and seals us with the Holy Spirit. That is part of the 'manward' act of salvation. What we have to do is repond - believe (the 'Godward' part of salvation). So I believe God is every bit responsible for our salvation. Afterall, we wouldn't respond if He didn't call.

But there are those who hear and seem to respond, to the point of experiencing the Spirit in corporate fellowship, and just walk away.

Was it possible that everyone could exercise their "free wills" and no one would have accepted? Was it ever a possibility that everyone could have accepted?

God bless

That is like wondering if since we all have corrupt natures, why aren't we all like Jeffery Dahmers or Ted Bundys. We are not robots, having been made in the image of God, and some will respond and others will not.

 

[Blackhawk]

Bh,

Nicely said. I don't think you use the wrong lingo for expressing the Truth of the reformed faith at all. In fact, you sound very well versed in reformed doctrines. There's no reason to "take it easy on you" because you are a wonderful example of a Christian who puts God's glory first in every aspect of their theology.

God bless,
Don

Thank you, although I think you give me too much credit.

 

[Blackhawk]

I believe that God draws, looks into the heart and mind - qualifying us,

I won't step into y'all's conversation for too long but what do you mean by qualifying us? Are we saved because God sees something inside us that makes us worthy of salvation?

 

[Benedicta00]

Genesis 3 is a good one.

and


Rom 3:10-18
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
(NAU)

Personally I do not like that naturally man does not seek after God and is an enemy of God but it is the truth. Praise God for his mercy to us who so clearly deserve nothing but wrath.

But still in all I think a corrupt nature is more or less being read into or assumed, nothing definitive.

Those verses can also support that because of sin and lack of sanctifying grace we are powerless to fight against sin even though we may try.

 

[Dr Dex]

[quote:FreeInChrist] I believe it is in Isaiah where we read that God looks to the heart of a person, knows his thoughts and desires.[/quote]

Well, if God looks into a human heart and sees something the He did not put there (like some kind of goodness or love for Christ), wouldn't the final, ultimate reason any human being is saved be the condition of their heart? In other words, it looks like what you are saying is that some of us are saved because we are good enough -- apart from God's goodness in us -- to choose Christ. I know you don't mean that, but to me that is what your view must propose.

“I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. (Genesis 8:21)

The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked;Who can know it? (Jer 17:9)

As the proverb goes, "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool". Our heart, if ever left to itself, would certainly condemn us. It is only by the Spirit's indwelling influence that our heart can turn. Don't you agree? Or do you think that somehow a man can overcome the influence of sin to rightly love Christ apart from the power and influence of the Holy Spirit? I ask honestly, so that I can understand where you are coming from.

That's why I would agree with Scriptures that God "grants" repentance. We are able to do so only because His Spirit moves in us. God can only approve of our heart when His Spirit has been at work in it.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (John 3:21)

 

[Dr Dex]

Oh well... that didn't go too well. I still have a bit to figure out about the way this forum's editor works.

 

[Blackhawk]

But still in all I think a corrupt nature is more or less being read into or assumed, nothing definitive.

Those verses can also support that because of sin and lack of sanctifying grace we are powerless to fight against sin even though we may try.

being assumed? It states it pretty plainly. And it ccan't be used to say that we can't do anything but sin after salvation since these verses are describing man in his natural state after tha fall and not the regenerated man. If it was describing the regenerated man then no one could ever have faith.

 

[FreeinChrist]

So God gives them to Jesus because He sees that their confession is true? How does a creation that is dead in it's trespasses and sins make a true confession of faith in the Lord? The natural mind is at enmity with God. Their natural nature is to rebell against God. I'm curious how you think it glorifies God to say that our being given to God is a result of our own righteousness.

?? First, we are given to Jesus. Exactly where do you think I wrote that we are given to Jesus as a result of our own righteousness? Belief in Jesus Christ results in righteousness due to what God then does for us. To repeat what I just wrote - He forgives, cleanses, renews, ...seals us in the Holy Spirit as a pledge of our inheritance. I have the scripture to back each one up.

I think you might be reading into what I wrote abit.

In regards to being 'dead in our trespasses' - this refers to being condemned to death as a result of our sinful nature. It is because of Adam's sin that death came into the world, and it is through Jesus Christ that we can experience eternal life.
Hbr 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Hbr 2:15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

What about John 10:27? It says God's sheep DO hear His voice and they DO follow Him?

Let's look at the verse:
Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;



The Greek word for 'know' is 'ginosko' and means 'to know experientially' or 'to know intuitively'. I believe this refers to those who respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Everything you seem to be professing places the credit for our salvation squarely on the shoulders of the person who makes the right decision.
Why do some make the right decision and some don't? If you claim the difference to be found in the creation then you boast in the creation.

Reread my last post. Compare what God does to what man does. Then show me exactly where I give the credit to man over God.