Who’s choice is it?

[Reformationist]

Reformationist,

I do think that salvation comes after belief. But this is no problem to me because God provides my salvation through him himself. He makes it so I can believe and be saved. Without him I cannot believe. Without him making me alive I will be D-E-A-D. Dead. So I have no problem with someone saying that salvation comes after belief as ong as they acknowledge also that the Holy Spirit provides the belief in me also through revealing his wonderful majesty to me. I do not contribute to my salvation. I just accept the gift he gives me which is irresistable.

Hey Bh. If you and I were speaking of this issue I would not be so adamant because I understand that you see God as the benefactor of faith and belief as well as salvation. However, in the midst of many Christians I am forced to be more guarded and, thus, more adamant.

In deference to you I will merely say that I feel it would be akin to putting a new suit on a corpse. If the person is still dead when God gives them faith they are merely a dead person with faith.

You see, "faith" is something. It isn't just a feeling. Think about it. When someone speaks of your great faith in the Lord what are they really referring to, the things you feel or the things you do? Now, before the deluge of faith alone vs. faith and works discussions get started let me say that I am merely making a point. Our "death" in our sins and trespasses is more than just "no faith." It is a complete lack of desire to serve the Lord in obedience. His monergistic work of "making you alive" is more than just enlightening you to His truth. He makes of us a new creation. That creation, while different from Adam and Eve in a very substantial way, is akin to them in nature. Denying the Truth of God means denying ourselves. God now lives in us and we can no more deny that then we can deny our own existence.

I think the differences between your views and mine center around your distinction between salvation and regeneration. While I agree that they are separate in essence they are actually parts of the same piece. I see a regenerate person as saved because all regenerate people are saved. I see a regenerate person as a believer because all regenerate people believe, though in varying degrees. Therefore, in some ways, true belief is salvation because God accomplishes our regeneration and our salvation through faith, through our belief. As I said, these may, in theory, be broken down into separate pieces but I think it unnecessary to do so to form a biblically accurate point of view. So long as we acknowledge that our belief, our very saving faith, is a product of God's efficacious grace rather than some "island of righteousness" that remains in us after the Fall we will be on sure and solid theological ground.

God bless,
Don

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I love reading your posts Don!!!

FOM<><

 

[Reformationist]

I love reading your posts Don!!!

FOM<><

Thanks bro! As much as I get blasted on this MB it sure is nice to hear some encouragement.

Although you didn't mention why you love reading my posts I'm sure it isn't for it's provision of comedic interlude, is it?

God bless,
Don

 

[Greeter]

Thanks bro! As much as I get blasted on this MB it sure is nice to hear some encouragement.

What other boards do you use Don? While a mistake, I never thought to offer much encouragement to you as you seemed to be very confident in yourself with such encouragement unnecessary. Please know that I enjoy your posts as well as I find them to be very helpful.

 

[Benedicta00]

Another question???

What makes anyone here think our nature is corrupt??

 

[Reformationist]

What other boards do you use Don?

Presently none. I find all the online fellowship I need right here at my home away from home.

While a mistake, I never thought to offer much encouragement to you as you seemed to be very confident in yourself with such encouragement unnecessary.

Confident, huh? Well, maybe a little too confident. As to that, well, I know my wife loves me but I still enjoy hearing the words now and again.

Please know that I enjoy your posts as well as I find them to be very helpful.

Thank you. That is very uplifting to me.

God bless,
Don

 

[Reformationist]

Another question???

What makes anyone here think our nature is corrupt??

The Bible says we are dead in our trespasses and sins. We were originally created without a sinful nature. So, we went from being undefiled by sin to sin being the entirity of our nature. I'd say that's corruption at it's utmost.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

You don't think it possible that dead in our trespasses means we will die a spiritual death with out a savior i.e. we will go to hell?

 

[Reformationist]

You don't think it possible that dead in our trespasses means we will die a spiritual death with out a savior i.e. we will go to hell?

Well, being as how "dead" is a direct past tense reference to man after the Fall I fail to see how it can refer to a future event.

Now, if the Word had said we will be dead in our trespasses and sins that would be a different story.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, being as how "dead" is a direct past tense reference to man after the Fall I fail to see how it can refer to a future event.

Now, if the Word had said we will be dead in our trespasses and sins that would be a different story.

God bless

But…but…we’re dead in original sin, no?? Are we not born bullets straight to hell?

 

[Reformationist]

But?but?we?re dead in original sin, no??

Yes.

Are we not born bullets straight to hell?

Sure.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yes.



Sure.

Then how do you figure that verse says our nature is corrupt?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Did God choose you because He knew you were going to choose Him or did God choose you and that’s why you choose Him?

I believe a key verse here is:
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
We can't come to faith in Jesus unless the Father draws us to Him.

 

[Reformationist]

Then how do you figure that verse says our nature is corrupt?

Michelle, what is it that you're trying to figure out? If you don't think "death" is a reference to the level of corruption our natures have suffered in the Fall, pray tell, what do you think "death" refers to?

 

[Reformationist]

I believe a key verse here is:
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
We can't come to faith in Jesus unless the Father draws us to Him.

If the Father does draw someone do they always come to faith in Jesus?

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Michelle, what is it that you're trying to figure out? If you don't think "death" is a reference to the level of corruption our natures have suffered in the Fall, pray tell, what do you think "death" refers to?

That we have lost eternal life after the fall and that we will suffer death, i.e. Hell. Notice how Jesus refers to all the dead that he was going to raise in the gospels as not dead but asleep [Lazarus and the little girl].

Those who die in Christ are never dead. Death refers to spiritual death, going to hell in the bible, not a corrupt nature, don't you think?

 

[Reformationist]

That we have lost eternal life after the fall and that we will suffer death, i.e. Hell.

So you don't think the introduction of sin did anything to corrupt our nature? We were basically the same people spiritually that we were prior to the Fall?

Notice how Jesus refers to all the dead that he was going to raise in the gospels as not dead but asleep [Lazarus and the little girl].

Huh??? "Asleep" is a term that is used to denote physical death. It has nothing whatsoever to do with spirituality.

Those who die in Christ are never dead. Death refers to spiritual death, going to hell in the bible, not a corrupt nature, don't you think?

Uh...NO. Michelle, what does the Bible mean when it speaks of the "carnal" mind?

 

[orthedoxy]

Well, you're more than welcome to your own opinion. Although, I would encourage you to seek to understand the nature of fallen man. The Bible is explicit when describing unregenerate man and blatantly says that the carnal mind views God as the enemy and is incapable of belief. It is in this very state that you are contending man makes his eternal decision of faith.

God bless

Don
I&#8217;ve been asking the same question over and over if you say you were saved before believing how do you explain hundred of verses here are few.
mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
will be saved meaning they where not saved.
act 2:21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
again will be saved.
luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.
Jesus was saying salvation came after the women faith.
Act 2:37-41 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
They weren&#8217;t saved and they wanted to be saved.
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Peter is saying repentance and baptism comes before salvation or at salvation.also recieving the holy spirit(regeneration) after repentance and baptism.
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Accepting the massage was before salvation.

The bible says this all over the place john 3:16 would be one, whoever believes shall not perish.
This is not merely my opinion but the bibles.
Can I get you to agree on that faith comes before salvation?

by the way Michelle excellent point. They say Catholics don't know their bible Huh!

 

[Reformationist]

Don
I?ve been asking the same question over and over if you say you were saved before believing how do you explain hundred of verses here are few.
mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
will be saved meaning they where not saved.
act 2:21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
again will be saved.
luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.
Jesus was saying salvation came after the women faith.
Act 2:37-41 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
They weren?t saved and they wanted to be saved.
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Peter is saying repentance and baptism comes before salvation or at salvation.also recieving the holy spirit(regeneration) after repentance and baptism.
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Accepting the massage was before salvation.

I'm not going to try to explain them because I think you start with an incorrect understanding of most of Scripture so trying to explain particular verses that you pick out to prove your point would be fighting an uphill battle. I will just tell you that I believe Scripture is clear that unregenerate man is morally incapable of inclining himself towards God. He must first be given a heart that desires to serve. God's monergistic act of giving that heart is regeneration.

The bible says this all over the place john 3:16 would be one, whoever believes shall not perish.

What is this aversion so many people have to punctuation? I do not disagree that believers shall not perish. What I disagree with is your belief that man, while dead in his trespasses and sins, submits to God. The Bible says, and I quote, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Romans 8:7).

This is not merely my opinion but the bibles.

Riiight. Do you realize how silly it sounds to make this claim? Does Jesus come to you and personally preach His Word? If not, you are either relying on your own interpretation or the interpretation of someone you trust. This doesn't make your belief wrong but it most certainly doesn't make it "merely the Bible's opinion."

Can I get you to agree on that faith comes before salvation?

Faith in God is the means by which He saves us. It isn't separate to salvation. It's part of it.

 

[Dr Dex]

Don
I’ve been asking the same question over and over if you say you were saved before believing how do you explain hundred of verses here are few.
mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
will be saved meaning they where not saved.
act 2:21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
again will be saved.
luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.
Jesus was saying salvation came after the women faith.
Act 2:37-41 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
They weren’t saved and they wanted to be saved.
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Peter is saying repentance and baptism comes before salvation or at salvation.also recieving the holy spirit(regeneration) after repentance and baptism.
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Accepting the massage was before salvation.

The bible says this all over the place john 3:16 would be one, whoever believes shall not perish.
This is not merely my opinion but the bibles.
Can I get you to agree on that faith comes before salvation?

by the way Michelle excellent point. They say Catholics don't know their bible Huh!

Don,

I'm new here, and you weren't talkin' to me, but I'm going to answer your question anyway.

Salvation is more than just the moment of conversion. If sovereign election is true, then there is a certain sense in which the elect are saved before Creation. If you are equating salvation to our time of justification, then there is a certain sense in which the elect are saved upon the time of faith.

That is why "justification" is an important word. Faith justifies our claim to salvation. We can say we are "saved" because we have faith. However, if a person's faith is a result of God's sovereign work of grace, from God's viewpoint, that person was always "being saved".

So, if Don is elect, he was "being saved" before he had faith, though now that he has faith, he is justified to claim that salvation. Before he had faith, nobody but God knew he was being saved.