Whither TAW?

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Hey Tall,

Why on Earth would that be a stumbling block for you? The Toll Houses just aren't spoken of that much in Orthodoxy. That shouldn't be a big deal for you at all I would think? When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I was looking at apostolic succession, sacraments, papal claims vs. conciliar model, "Photian" Schism, St. Gregory Palamas and hesychasm, church polity, how the East worships and views sin and redemption, etc. You could've told me about Toll Houses and I could've cared less. If you stay Catholic, you have purgatory, an innovative idea that is equally depressing :p

The priest at the local Orthodox church told me toll houses were just something believed by the fringe. It's one of my stumbling blocks to further inquiry into Orthodoxy
 
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Well I won't deny Rus has been in-your-face tough lately and ready to unleash the nukes, but trolling? Seriously, I don't know any trolls in TAW whatsoever. Rus has been in here way too long and has been too consistent with his opinions and doesn't show anything trolling imo

And rus's post is the sort of trollish post that pushes the other buttons - which is why I so object to it.
 
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Dorothea

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sadly, this priest was incorrect. there are many Greek sources where you can find the toll houses -- Elder Ephraim, Elder Joseph, Elder Paisios, St. Porphyrios, Met. Hierotheos Vlachos, Archimandrite Vasilios Bakoyiannis, Constantine Cavarnos, Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis, not to mention the many Fathers who wrote about them who were a bunch of Greeks ...

as for hymns, if you were to look through every text of the Church -- the Octoechos, the Menaion, the Triodion, the Pentecostarion, etc you will start to find references to this reality popping up frequently enough. These pages contain just a few of the many references: Evidence for the Tradition of the Toll Houses found in the Universally Received Tradition of the Church
St. Michael Academy Orthodox Bible College
Answer to a Critic: Appendix III from The Soul After Death
We realize that there are some Greek elders that refer to it, but it's not in our tradition to interpret it that way. The way I understand it, it's more in the Russian tradition. I am indifferent to it, personally. Meaning I'm not against it or totally for it. What my husband said is that the view of the toll houses is the life we are living on earth - spiritual warfare - and not after we pass. That's his understanding/belief, and Elder Paisios is his favorite elder/saint. We do know it's in the Akathist..well, it's mentioned about her guiding our souls to her Son, keeping the demons away.

Also, there's nothing mentioned in it in the Dogmatic Teachings of the Church in my archdiocese:

The Holy Spirit of God, working through the Church and its sacramental life, leads the plan of salvation in Christ to completion and final fulfillment. The final battle with evil that operates in the world will occur just before the coming again of the Lord. In the meantime, the struggle against evil and dark forces in the world continues, with some victories on behalf of the Church, and with some failures on behalf of some of its members. This is the normal condition of the life of the Church, which is the inaugurated Kingdom of God, and which, however, has not yet come fully. Two distinct stages are to be recognized, in terms of Christian Orthodox eschatology: that of a "partial judgment," of a "partial" or "realized" eschatology, and that of a "final judgment," at the coming again of the Lord, which will come at the end of time.

a) Partial judgment - the hour of our death

Our physical death, a consequence of the first man's sin that we still suffer, can be seen in two ways:

negatively, as a kind of catastrophe, especially for those who do not believe in Christ and life everlasting in Him; and
positively, as the end of a maturation process, which leads us to the encounter with our Maker. Christ has destroyed the power of the "last enemy," death (1 Cor. 18:26).
A Christian worthy of the name is not afraid of this physical death insofar as it is not accompanied by a spiritual or eternal (eschatological) death.

A partial judgment is instituted immediately after our physical death, which places us in an intermediate condition of partial blessedness (for the righteous), or partial suffering (for the unrighteous).

Disavowing a belief in the Western "Purgatory," our Church believes that a change is possible during this intermediate state and stage. The Church, militant and triumphant, is still one, which means that we can still influence one another with our prayers and our saintly (or ungodly) life. This is the reason why we pray for our dead. Also, almsgiving on behalf of the dead may be of some help to them, without implying, of course, that those who provide the alms are in some fashion "buying" anybody's salvation.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8038
 
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Tallguy88

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Hey Tall,

Why on Earth would that be a stumbling block for you? The Toll Houses just aren't spoken of that much in Orthodoxy. That shouldn't be a big deal for you at all I would think? When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I was looking at apostolic succession, sacraments, papal claims vs. conciliar model, "Photian" Schism, St. Gregory Palamas and hesychasm, church polity, how the East worships and views sin and redemption, etc. You could've told me about Toll Houses and I could've cared less. If you stay Catholic, you have purgatory, an innovative idea that is equally depressing :p

I'm not sure I should go in depth in this thread. But I find Purgatory more plausible because it's something God does to us to make us holier. Toll houses seem to me to be demons usurping God's power.
 
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Columba7

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I'm not sure I should go in depth in this thread. But I find Purgatory more plausible because it's something God does to us to make us holier. Toll houses seem to me to be demons usurping God's power.
One has the liberty to believe in tollhouses or reject them in Orthodoxy just as Roman Catholics have the liberty to believe in limbo. Both may be seen as unsettling.
 
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Well, are you sure it is usurping? God allowed Pilate and the Romans and Jews to thrash the Lord into tatters in order to save us and provide us salvation. How do you know the demons are not testing and strengthening the soul as they ascend? Nothing is done without God's knowledge, approval, etc. Theoretically, our cultivation of the spiritual life throughout this life combined with God's grace and the help of the angels would give one the strength?

I'm not sure I should go in depth in this thread. But I find Purgatory more plausible because it's something God does to us to make us holier. Toll houses seem to me to be demons usurping God's power.
 
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rusmeister

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Apparently not, as some posting in this thread think certain positions which are well within the bounds of the Church are in fact outside those bounds and argue quite vigorously, or at least echo quite thoroughly amongst themselves, when brought up. I strenuously object to being bullied about things which, as you put it, are not dogma because nobody knows the details because they weren't revealed by God. Which is what's happening elsewhere and what rusmeister is referring to doing here in this thread.

Hi, gz,
I think you've misread me if you think I've "bullied" on topics like evolution or whatever. The one thing I would concede "bullying" on is when Orthodox Christians received into the Church deny Church authority and/or say we need to "reinterpret" Tradition differently from the fathers. Then, yeah, I'll stand up and shout. Which I did. And which maybe you took as a veto on talking about evolution.

I participated in a LONG and totally allowed discussion on evolution with you just now. I stopped when it became clear that the issue was not nearly so much about evolution as it was about Church authority. I started a thread on THAT and someone managed to get it locked. Which issue is the one that is not allowed?
 
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rusmeister

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I hope these convos aren't derailing Rus's OP. Anyway, I don't want to debate over toll houses or evolution on here or anywhere. Love to you all. :wave:

Thanks, Dot. :)
 
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E.C.

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TAW has changed because people no longer post in the Taverna.


Think about it. Some came here and stayed because they sensed and thought of this lonely little corner of sanity in the Internet made for a great community. I've always thought of coming to this forum as being similar to coffee hour: we share common interests in the Church and Her works, we share a bit about our lives since the last time we met, we have some serious discussions once in a while, we answer questions, we welcome the newbies, etc etc.
As soon as the Taverna reached a point to where it struggles for life the community dynamic of TAW began to change. People became more impatient with each other and that lead some dear posters, whom I wish would return one day, to leave. The Taverna helped to make that name we read in the top-left of the posts a human being and not just text on our monitors. Take that away and TAW is not the same as it was.



And since we're talking about Church Authority :)

We love the Church therefore we follow what she teaches. We are human therefore we will struggle with that. We are Orthodox Christians which means that we will help each other endure in that struggle.
 
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inconsequential

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I've been here 10 years and it has changed a lot. I discovered Orthodoxy here and it was the love for one another as well as the overwhelming unity of faith and doctrine shared by such a diverse group of people that convinced me of the truth of Orthodoxy. It is deeply saddening to see how it has changed and to realize that, had it been this way then, I likely would be Catholic or agnostic today.

I try to limit my posting because my own struggles make me toxic to most any spiritual discussion and I don't want to inflict myself on anyone any more than I have to.
 
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Kristos

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No argument.

I'm all for "lighten up" moments, but like *somebody* once said, the opposite of "funny" isn't "serious". The opposite of "funny" is "not funny". And I think being divided over Church authority is not funny. Note what happened to my thread on that topic.

And division over THAT enables division over everything else. As we have seen, without that people can teach anything at all and call it "Orthodox". Unless there is a clear and identifiable thing that has the power to correct us when we err, then we will have... what we now have, what you (Gurney) have described. It's really different from 5 or so years ago, when we were united against the impositions of CF admin. Until less than a year ago, TAW had a rep, bolstered by all visiting posters, for being the friendlest and most welcoming forum on CF. But I think our being united on doctrine had a lot to do with being able to create that atmosphere. Now I think we aren't, and I think the poison of pluralism that we are exposed to in the outside world has a lot to do with THAT, and some here are singing the praises of pluralism, of "dynamic" (that is, changing) theology, and so on. And they are ready to appeal to a non-Orthodox administration to impose it when Orthodox that understand what it is reject it.


There are definitely a few (maybe one or two) that seem to err on the side of pluralism. The flipside to that is the few (one or two again) that seem to err on the side of fundamentalism. The latter seem to enjoy your approval more often than the former, while I personally find the latter to a bit more insidious because it is veiled in "tradition", but I'm afraid this tradition is too often taken out of context and literally interpreted to fit a fundamentalist view of Orthodoxy. Before I get labelled as a pluralist because I oppose fundamentalism, let me repeat that I find them both equally in error. The whole point of this "Authority" thread seems to be against pluralism - which I agree with, but it also seems to let the fundamentalist side off the hook - which I don't agree with. In the end, you are correct - there is no authority here - we, for the most part, are anonymous posters with no "real" personal relationship. Our priests are not here, our bishops are not here, so no one person here really has any authority to say this is Orthodox and this is not. We all have our views and we can communicate our reasons, but ultimately none of us have any authority.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'm not sure I should go in depth in this thread. But I find Purgatory more plausible because it's something God does to us to make us holier. Toll houses seem to me to be demons usurping God's power.

for one, the toll houses is not something to fret over. the demons have no more power then, than they do now. if you pray and repent now, you won't need to worry when death comes because they will find nothing in you.

and actually, if you read St Theognostos in the Philokalia, he teaches that the truly holy can actually attack the demons.

bottom line is don't make this a stumbling block, and don't fret over it.
 
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inconsequential

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I remember reading here, several years ago, account of a man who died and returned to life. He told of encountering demons at a toll house and when they began to accuse him, he said something the effect that, "We have no business with each other. Yes I've sinned greatly but my sins were against Christ and it is to Him that I must answer."

Does anyone know who this was or has anyone else even heard it?
 
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I think some here err on the side of not reading postings carefully, not listening to what a poster is saying, prejudging the poster and categorizing the poster by slapping labels on them via passing quick judgments on them with little to no information about the person (and no, "knowing" someone online is not the same as knowing them in person). That is a big turn off and certainly will "wither" TAW very quickly.
 
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jckstraw72

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My father's family was cradle Orthodox and I know when the church prays for the departed in our Antiochian parish, there are no toll houses mentioned. We pray that their memory be eternal.

they are in the canon at the departure of the soul from the body and in the Funeral service
 
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rusmeister

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@Rus

Где на русском можно прочитать про Toll house's?

Ищите "мытарства".
 
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