Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

[Debi1967]

One might just note that the Jewish calendar has always varied according to the phases of the moon and therefore because of this can have as little as 354 days to a year to 384 days to a year and this is historically accurate as well

For more inofrmation one should look here

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03166a.htm

Also, the Gregorian calendar and the Jewish calendar although they both work in 7 day cycles they do not work on the same premise either... this too should be noted as a the Jewish day goes from sundown to sundown primarily whereas we go from midnight to midnight ....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03158a.htm#foundations

And here is where the reform of the calendar is discussed....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03168a.htm

then I have given you Scriptural references as to SUNDAY Worship in the Bible which means that it is Biblical that it was changed .... that the Apostles themselves did this and you still ignore what was already posted .... It seems that if the proof is there to disprove the theory of Saturday Sabbath worship then it is just disregarded because then I must be crazy or something when I am supplying ample proof of it empirically and substantiating my theory with Scripture which many of you have said that you will only listen to ....

Scripture
Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

Now I also want you to answer the logic of this argument by one of the Early Church Fathers

"In fine, let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of the threat of death, teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered "friends of God." For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised--yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath--God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God." Tertullian, An answer to the Jews, 2 (A.D. 203).

"Also that day which is holy and blessed in everything, which possesses the name of Christ, namely the Lord's day, having risen upon us on the fourth of Pharmuthi (Mar. 30), let us afterwards keep the holy feast of Pentecost." Athanasius, Epistle 9:11 (A.D. 335).

"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans, or into Judaism: for Jesus Christ henceforth hath ransomed thee. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths, and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4:37 (A.D. 350).

"Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ." Council of Laodicea, Canon 29 (A.D. 360).

 

[prodromos]

Sorry, but Jesus Christ was not a liar !

20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a [sign] between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".

Prooftexting. Yippee!
Read verse 20 in the context of the whole chapter of Ezekial 20. Note also that He speaks of sabbaths (plural), not necessarily the weekly sabbath.

John

 

[Sophia7]

One might just note that the Jewish calendar has always varied according to the phases of the moon and therefore because of this can have as little as 354 days to a year to 384 days to a year and this is historically accurate as well

For more inofrmation one should look here

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03166a.htm

Also, the Gregorian calendar and the Jewish calendar although they both work in 7 day cycles they do not work on the same premise either... this too should be noted as a the Jewish day goes from sundown to sundown primarily whereas we go from midnight to midnight ....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03158a.htm#foundations

And here is where the reform of the calendar is discussed....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03168a.htm

None of these changes have disrupted the cycle of the days of the week, though, or caused the whole world to lose track of which day was which. It doesn't matter that Jews begin the day at sunset; the days are still in the same order, with the same number of days in a week. Any attempts to change the number of days in a week have failed. The number of days in a year doesn't matter; the days of the week are the same regardless.

 

[Debi1967]

Prooftexting. Yippee!
Read verse 20 in the context of the whole chapter of Ezekial 20. Note also that He speaks of sabbaths (plural), not necessarily the weekly sabbath.

John

John they conveniently do not see the (S) at the end of Sabbath in that Scripture and they conveniently do not see that the Lord was ....

They also do not seem to see this Scripture in Isaiah at all ......

Isa 1:13 Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked.

Isa 1:14 My soul hateth your new moons, and your solemnities: they are become troublesome to me, I am weary of bearing them.

Isa 1:15 And when you stretch forth your hands, I will turn away my eyes from you: and when you multiply prayer, I will not hear: for your hands are full of blood.

Isa 1:16 Wash yourselves, be clean, take away the evil of your devices from my eyes, cease to do perversely,

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well: seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge for the fatherless, defend the widow.

Isa 1:18 And then come, and accuse me, saith the Lord: if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow: and if they be red as crimson, they shall be white as wool.

Isa 1:19 If you be willing, and will hearken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land.

Isa 1:20 But if you will not, and will provoke me to wrath: the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city, that was full of judgment, become a harlot? justice dwelt in it, but now murderers. (Talking to the Jews in Sodom and Gommorrah)

Isa 1:22 Thy silver is turned into dross: thy wine is mingled with water.

Isa 1:23 Thy princes are faithless, companions of thieves: they all love bribes, they run after rewards. They judge not for the fatherless: and the widow's cause cometh not in to them.

Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord the God of hosts, the mighty one of Israel: Ah! I will comfort myself over my adversaries: and I will be revenged of my enemies.

Isa 1:25 And I will turn my hand to thee, and I will clean purge away thy dross, and I will take away all thy tin.

Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as they were before, and thy counsellors as of old. After this thou shalt be called the city of the just, a faithful city.

Isa 1:27 Sion shall be redeemed in judgment, and they shall bring her back in justice.

Isa 1:28 And he shall destroy the wicked, and the sinners together: and they that have forsaken the Lord, shall be consumed.

Isa 1:29 For they shall be confounded for the idols, to which they have sacrificed: and you shall be ashamed of the gardens which you have chosen.

Isa 1:30 When you shall be as an oak with the leaves falling off, and as a garden without water.

Isa 1:31 And your strength shall be as the ashes of tow, and your work as a spark: and both shall burn together, and there shall be none to quench it.

REmember that originally these were Faithful cities that turned on Go and because of that lost favor. Because of this loss of favor their justice was complete with the eternal fires that Christ referred to later saying that fires still burned there .... Yet we know that they had been long extinguished... To this day that land lay barron ....

 

[Debi1967]

None of these changes have disrupted the cycle of the days of the week, though, or caused the whole world to lose track of which day was which. It doesn't matter that Jews begin the day at sunset; the days are still in the same order, with the same number of days in a week. Any attempts to change the number of days in a week have failed. The number of days in a year doesn't matter; the days of the week are the same regardless.

This again is not the point and again the part of that post that was relevant was disregarded again because it proves that the Sabbath was indeed changed by the apostles themselves ... that there is scriptural baking for it and thus since the Bible is the inerrant word of God this too is to say that God's word is a lie

 

[Cliff2]

This again is not the point and again the part of that post that was relevant was disregarded again because it proves that the Sabbath was indeed changed by the apostles themselves ... that there is scriptural baking for it and thus since the Bible is the inerrant word of God this too is to say that God's word is a lie

Have you looked at all the texts provided in the links here?

I am yet to see where there is a text that says the Apostles or Jesus changed the Sabbath.

If I have overlooked it could you give me the text please.

Click here for "Ten Facts about the Sabbath"

Click here for in interesting link for ROME'S CHALLENGE

Click here for the Sabbath in the New Testament

Page two is here

Page three is here

Page four is here

Then click here for all texts in the Bible that says the "first day of the week".

There are only 8 first day texts in the New Testament and not one of them suggest that the Apostles or Jesus changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week.

But I am willing to look at a text if you think it is there.

 

[TrustAndObey]

This again is not the point and again the part of that post that was relevant was disregarded again because it proves that the Sabbath was indeed changed by the apostles themselves ... that there is scriptural baking for it and thus since the Bible is the inerrant word of God this too is to say that God's word is a lie

That's not true, but even if it were....did the apostles have the authority to change God's holy day?

I always have to laugh when people start pulling out the "the calendar has changed so you're not worshipping on the right day anyway" arguments. That is something I studied for a long time. I guess it doesn't dawn on people that if we are worshipping on the "wrong" day, then they are too. If the seventh day was moved around or changed somehow (which it wasn't) then so was Sunday.

I've heard people get so desperate that they start saying things like "what if you were on the equator and ......" Isn't it odd how those arguments never come up about Sunday?

 

[prodromos]

Here is a thread giving an Orthodox perspective on the Sabbath
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=107302

John

 

[prodromos]

I just wanted to comment on these two lines, the first one would be in err, Justin didn't become Christian until about 130 A.D. and was not a disciple of any of the Apostles.

the dates given are close, he was born about 100 A.D. and died about 165 A.D. making he writings after 135 A.D. which would be the about the time of the letter of Barnabas which was the first document to promote Sunday keeping as a day of worship.

You are correct. Oblio must have confused Justin Martyr with Ignatius who was a disciple of the Apostle John and died around 107AD. Here is the quote he must have meant.

Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].

John

 

[PaleHorse]

That's not true, but even if it were....did the apostles have the authority to change God's holy day?

I always have to laugh when people start pulling out the "the calendar has changed so you're not worshipping on the right day anyway" arguments. That is something I studied for a long time. I guess it doesn't dawn on people that if we are worshipping on the "wrong" day, then they are too. If the seventh day was moved around or changed somehow (which it wasn't) then so was Sunday.

I've heard people get so desperate that they start saying things like "what if you were on the equator and ......" Isn't it odd how those arguments never come up about Sunday?

Yeah, I have to kind of giggle a little when the last-ditch "the calendar was changed" argument comes into play.

Those who fall to this argument overlook the fact that for it to be true every Jew on earth would have to had simultaneously "forgotten" when the Sabbath was. And let's say (for the sake of argument) that this "global amnesia" actually took place; well the Jews, who have always been meticulous record-keepers, would have their records to fall back on and the Sabbath would be re-found. It flies in the face of common sense and reason.

I guess this means when we add that day to Feb every 4 years for the Leap Year, that that also throws the days of the week off too? (hehe - sorry, I just had to. It's too funny.)

 

[PaleHorse]

This again is not the point and again the part of that post that was relevant was disregarded again because it proves that the Sabbath was indeed changed by the apostles themselves ... that there is scriptural baking for it and thus since the Bible is the inerrant word of God this too is to say that God's word is a lie

No, God isn't did lie - but the tradition of Sunday observance is for the apostles never changed it nor would they have the authority to do so anyway. If you believe there is a text in the Bible that changes the the Sabbath to Sunday please post it and we'll examine it together.

 

[oldsage]

You are correct. Oblio must have confused Justin Martyr with Ignatius who was a disciple of the Apostle John and died around 107AD. Here is the quote he must have meant.


John

right and notice that Ignatius still is keeping sabbath, in the way that Jesus meant it to be kept, not as the jews keep it. then after the sabbath, celebrate the Resurrection day.

I think I posted that part of his letter earlier in this thread.

 

[prodromos]

I think I posted that part of his letter earlier in this thread.

I came into the thread late , but I would be surprised if no one had posted it

notice that Ignatius still is keeping sabbath, in the way that Jesus meant it to be kept, not as the jews keep it. then after the sabbath, celebrate the Resurrection day

And this is the attitude towards the Sabbath the Orthodox church has always held and continues to hold today.

John

 

[PaleHorse]

This again is not the point and again the part of that post that was relevant was disregarded again because it proves that the Sabbath was indeed changed by the apostles themselves ... that there is scriptural baking for it and thus since the Bible is the inerrant word of God this too is to say that God's word is a lie

Hello again, DebiWebi,
I just wanted to post a few quotes from the Catholic church that clear states that the change from Sabbath to Sunday is not scripturally based: (emphasis mine)

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its' claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles...From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day to the first day of the week." The Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900


"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath." John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883


"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter, the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant."
The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p.4


Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday...not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become Seventh-day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy."
Catholic Church Sentinel, May 21, 1995

You'll notice that some of these quotes are dated as recently as 1995. I have repeatedly asked Catholics if the church has changed her stance on this, and not a single one has offered any proof to show a change.

Don't get me wrong, while I don't agree with the Catholic transference of God's holy day, my argument isn't with the Catholic church. My main contension is with fellow Protestants who claim the Bible as their only creed, yet due to tradition, observe Sunday - of which there is no biblical authority to support such a change. The Catholic church accepts post-apostolic writings as a basis for their beliefs, and while I would caution against doing so, the bottom line is it's their/your perogative to do so. At least that is honorable because it is honest. Protestants on the other hand...well, just as noted in the above quotes, have no reason for Sunday observance. In this regard I agree with the Catholic church's assessment.

 

[PaleHorse]

This is a scan of a pamphlet I have that also talks about the calendar-change issue. I think it helps if people can see the change from Julian to Gregorian rather than just a discussion of it.

So, we see that the transition from the Julian to the Gregorian did not affect the weekly cycle.​

 

[Debi1967]

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its' claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles...From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day to the first day of the week." The Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900

umm just because it says Catholic in the title does not mean that it has the approval of the Church .... that is for one

Secondly since we believe that Peter is the first Pope and that all the Apostles were Holy Apostlic Catholic this would indeed mean that this is an accurate statement to an extent because it was instituted by the Apostles after Christ's death .... Therefore it is a Catholic institution.... but the fact remains that I have proven it Biblically because I have proven it through Scripture so therefore the latter part of that statement is inaccurate ..... The Catholic press is made up of mostly either Laity and/or people from all denominations. So therefore not all that comes from the Catholic Press is in line with the Holy SEE of Rome and our Teachings...

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday...not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become Seventh-day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy."
Catholic Church Sentinel, May 21, 1995

Why should the Church change Her stance on anything because this is not the Church's stance to begin with.... this is that of writer's that are saying their opinions and most of the publications that you have just pulled from are indeed all from the same source and that is from Catholic Press International....

 

[Debi1967]

No, God isn't did lie - but the tradition of Sunday observance is for the apostles never changed it nor would they have the authority to do so anyway. If you believe there is a text in the Bible that changes the the Sabbath to Sunday please post it and we'll examine it together.

I have posted this several times already and it is at Matthew 16:18-19

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

What part of whatsoever is not understood? You seem to think that this limits something .... I do not think that whatsoever means that he was limiting Peter or however you wish to think of it.... Sorry to say he was giving the keys to Peter and He was giving the authority to bind and loose to him as well .... whatsoever .... so therefore IF Peter and the Apostles decided that they wanted to change the Sabbath to the day of the Risen Lord then by the Authority given to them by GOD they could and did .... What part of that is so hard to understand? It seems very straightforward to me .... considering there is backup to prove that it was changed ....

 

[Debi1967]

That's not true, but even if it were....did the apostles have the authority to change God's holy day?

It is funny that you all say that you will only listen to Scripture but when the Scripture is right there for you to see you will not address it and say that it is not true .... Are you saying that the word of God is not true when I am backing up my argument SCRIPTURALLY.... Because several times now I have posted the scriptures and several times now instead of the scriptures being addressed they are ignored and all I get is this is not true and then we are back to the argument did they have the authoprity even if it is true when in fact I can prove scripturally again that God gave them the authority Himself .... What does it say in the Bible about calling God a liar?

 

[Cliff2]

I have posted this several times already and it is at Matthew 16:18-19

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

What part of whatsoever is not understood? You seem to think that this limits something .... I do not think that whatsoever means that he was limiting Peter or however you wish to think of it.... Sorry to say he was giving the keys to Peter and He was giving the authority to bind and loose to him as well .... whatsoever .... so therefore IF Peter and the Apostles decided that they wanted to change the Sabbath to the day of the Risen Lord then by the Authority given to them by GOD they could and did .... What part of that is so hard to understand? It seems very straightforward to me .... considering there is backup to prove that it was changed ....

I have shown in my posts that the "rock" here is actually Jesus Christ. The Bible teels us that.

The Bible also says that the chief cornerstone is Jesus Christ.

The early Christian Church was built on Jesus Christ not Peter.

Christ when talking of this verse never meant that Peter was the rock. It is 'this rock"

That refers to Himself. Not Peter as many claim it to be.

I can post all the verses again if you want them

 

[Cliff2]

It is funny that you all say that you will only listen to Scripture but when the Scripture is right there for you to see you will not address it and say that it is not true .... Are you saying that the word of God is not true when I am backing up my argument SCRIPTURALLY.... Because several times now I have posted the scriptures and several times now instead of the scriptures being addressed they are ignored and all I get is this is not true and then we are back to the argument did they have the authoprity even if it is true when in fact I can prove scripturally again that God gave them the authority Himself .... What does it say in the Bible about calling God a liar?

I have posted these links before and I am yet to see where there is a text that says the Sabbath has been changed.

Here they are again for you to look at.

Click here for "Ten Facts about the Sabbath"

Click here for in interesting link for ROME'S CHALLENGE

Click here for the Sabbath in the New Testament

Page two is here

Page three is here

Page four is here

Then click here for all texts in the Bible that says the "first day of the week".