Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

[Debi1967]

Not one of those texts support the change from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week as being the Sabbath.



Isaiah 1 (New International Version)
A Rebellious Nation

2 Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth!
For the LORD has spoken:
"I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.


3 The ox knows his master,
the donkey his owner's manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand."

4 Ah, sinful nation,
a people loaded with guilt,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the LORD;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.

6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.

7 Your country is desolate,
your cities burned with fire;
your fields are being stripped by foreigners
right before you,
laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.

8 The Daughter of Zion is left
like a shelter in a vineyard,
like a hut in a field of melons,
like a city under siege.

9 Unless the LORD Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the law of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!

11 "The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?" says the LORD.
"I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;

16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,

17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;

20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword."
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

21 See how the faithful city
has become a harlot!
She once was full of justice;
righteousness used to dwell in her—
but now murderers!

22 Your silver has become dross,
your choice wine is diluted with water.

23 Your rulers are rebels,
companions of thieves;
they all love bribes
and chase after gifts.
They do not defend the cause of the fatherless;
the widow's case does not come before them.

24 Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
"Ah, I will get relief from my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.

25 I will turn my hand against you;
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.

26 I will restore your judges as in days of old,
your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City."

27 Zion will be redeemed with justice,
her penitent ones with righteousness.

28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken,
and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

29 "You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks
in which you have delighted;
you will be disgraced because of the gardens
that you have chosen.

30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.

31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire."


Is. 1:13 does not reveal God's displeasure about the Sabbath at all.

What it does reveal is God's displeasure about the people. Read the whole chapter.

They are a sinful nation in rebellion, God wants them to change. Just as Jesus told the Jew when He was on this earth.

They were a stiffnecked people who followed traditions instead of God's Word.

Sunday worship is a tradition, not found in God's Word.

I have read the whole chapter and I have also told you of whom it was speaking which was Soddom and Gommorrah .... considering that the ones that colonized those cities were indeed righteous to begin with and then starting observing practices that were abhorant to God .....Then how many people did he actually save from the city because how many were left.... and he told Lot and His wife not to look back and what did Lot's wife do? I am quite aquainted with the whole of it actually and the bond that he had with Abraham right before that if even tn Righteous remained he would not destroy the cities but there was not ten and therefore the cities were destroyed and he turned all of them blind before doing that were unrighteous before doing so.... Anything else you would like to know

 

[Debi1967]

Again, please show me in the scriptures where the "Lord's Day" equates to Sunday.



Yes, the Sabbath was made for "man"; not just "Jew" or "Israelite" but ALL of mankind.

And again please show me where it equate to Saturday you cannot therefore we are stalemated are we not but I can prove conclusively that the meaning of " the Sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath refers to the fact that the had a covenant with the Isrealites and it was His way of sealing that covenant with them.... They held the Sabbath and they were to circumcise .....

 

[Debi1967]

I don't know why you are posting this when the scripture itself is so clear. Notice how they (both the Strong's and the Thayer's) use the word "apparently"? What that tells me is that they, instead of simply defining the word, are trying to add an interpretation - and no honest lexicon does that. A lexicon's purpose is to give the reader the plain meaning of words so that the READER can then make the interpretation - not the other way around.

The word apparently is not in regards the definition but in regards the usuage as in it is a Primary or non-primary word .....

definition of primary word in linguistics study

1. Linguistics.
2. Having a word root or other linguistic element as a basis that cannot be further analyzed or broken down. Used of the derivation of a word or word element.
3. Referring to present or future time. Used as a collective designation for various present and future verb tenses in Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit.

 

[Debi1967]

So therefore ALLLLLLLLLLLL of the transcriptionists have assessed this and have concluded that Peter in MODERN day english, would be definied as this in the Bible and by the way both Strong's and Thayer's are PROTESTANTS

 

[PaleHorse]

And again please show me where it equate to Saturday you cannot therefore we are stalemated are we not but I can prove conclusively that the meaning of " the Sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath refers to the fact that the had a covenant with the Isrealites and it was His way of sealing that covenant with them.... They held the Sabbath and they were to circumcise .....

Okay, let's talk about the "Lord's Day".

“The Lord’s Day” is only found in one place in the Bible,
Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Notice that the text does not say what day of the week it is, as such we must look for other direct clues.
John was the writer of the book of Revelation, that’s why he is known as “John the Revelator”. John was a Jew, as such, he knew and followed the seventh-day Sabbath just as some of your post-apostolic sources state - that the Jews followed the seventh-day Sabbath. So, for him to use the phrase “The Lord’s Day” would mean Saturday (specifically Friday sundown to Saturday sundown). How do I know he wasn't referring the "the great and terrible day of the Lord" (Christ's second advent)? Because if we read the text carefully in Rev 1 we find that John start discussing what the vision is until verse 12.

Also, I recommend you read all of Revelation 1… not one time does it say what day the “Lord’s Day” is. To assume it was a Sunday is ridiculous when we look at the surrounding evidence.

 

[Debi1967]

But the Apostles didn't change it - that's the point.

But they did and there is proof to that whereas where is yopur prrof that they did not? Because I have posted more than adequate proof that they did .... whether or not YOU choose to except the EMPIRICAL and OBJECTIVE proof is up to you .... that is your choice but it is my choice to sit here and say to myself logically they did because it was done and there is more than adequate proof both biblially and through the teachings of those that were in charge of handing down those teachings

 

[Debi1967]

Okay, let's talk about the "Lord's Day".

“The Lord’s Day” is only found in one place in the Bible,
Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Notice that the text does not say what day of the week it is, as such we must look for other direct clues.
John was the writer of the book of Revelation, that’s why he is known as “John the Revelator”. John was a Jew, as such, he knew and followed the seventh-day Sabbath just as some of your post-apostolic sources state - that the Jews followed the seventh-day Sabbath. So, for him to use the phrase “The Lord’s Day” would mean Saturday (specifically Friday sundown to Saturday sundown). How do I know he wasn't referring the "the great and terrible day of the Lord" (Christ's second advent)? Because if we read the text carefully in Rev 1 we find that John start discussing what the vision is until verse 12.

Also, I recommend you read all of Revelation 1… not one time does it say what day the “Lord’s Day” is. To assume it was a Sunday is ridiculous when we look at the surrounding evidence.

John spoke of the Lord in high regard he could have only been exegetically been speaking of Christ ..... All we need do is look at all of John;s writing's to see this and who is it throughout the Apocolypse/Revelation that he talking about but Christ

 

[PaleHorse]

So therefore ALLLLLLLLLLLL of the transcriptionists have assessed this and have concluded that Peter in MODERN day english, would be definied as this in the Bible and by the way both Strong's and Thayer's are PROTESTANTS

Exactly, which is why I think Protestants that agree with this are being hypocritical.

The word apparently is not in regards the definition but in regards the usuage as in it is a Primary or non-primary word .....

I really couldn't care less about "usage" - I need unbiased definitions.

1. Linguistics.
2. Having a word root or other linguistic element as a basis that cannot be further analyzed or broken down. Used of the derivation of a word or word element.
3. Referring to present or future time. Used as a collective designation for various present and future verb tenses in Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit.

"Peter" or "rock" are not verbs - they are nouns.

 

[PaleHorse]

John spoke of the Lord in high regard he could have only been exegetically been speaking of Christ ..... All we need do is look at all of John;s writing's to see this and who is it throughout the Apocolypse/Revelation that he talking about but Christ

Yes, and Christ is lord of the Sabbath; so what is your point?

 

[Debi1967]

I have btw read all of the Apocolypse as written by the Apostle John which btw was the title given to it by John himself and not Revelation, it was thought by Luther later and some others when he was still a priest in the Church that the word apocolypse was too ominious therefore they changed the name to Revelation as in The revelation of John ....

My favorite verses of the Bible come from Revelation and used to be in my sig line for quite some time and they are from Revelation 21:3-4

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men: and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and God himself with them shall be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more. Nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.

I know these verses by heart .... as I do many others but I have kown these verses since I was a child by heart and have always been fascinated with the book of Revelation .... I often quote from it when most others shy away from using it because it is a hard book to understand because of it's prophetic nature and because of it's metaphorical nature as well .... The symbolisms used in Revelation often leave people confused ... so therefore in order to properly understand the meanings of things in placement means that in depth study must be done....

 

[Debi1967]

Yes, and Christ is lord of the Sabbath; so what is your point?

That is my point .... so therefore if Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath then why are you not celebrating it on Sunday the Lord's Day ... the Day of the Risen Lord?

 

[Debi1967]

Exactly, which is why I think Protestants that agree with this are being hypocritical.


I really couldn't care less about "usage" - I need unbiased definitions.
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"Peter" or "rock" are not verbs - they are nouns.

Umm that was simply from a dictionary looked up on google the first one that came up thank you so therefore there was no bias in it ....

Now you are posing red herring arguments

I gave the whoile of the defintion in linguistics for you but really only the first defintion applies and so therefore you would be right but you are not going after the right argument with me go back to the first defintion and see if you can find fault with that one definition #2 actually

 

[prodromos]

Again, please show me in the scriptures where the "Lord's Day" equates to Sunday.

I know it isn't scripture but it is from one of the disciples of John the Evangelist, from the end of the 1st century or the beginning of the 2nd.

And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]

 

[Cliff2]

I know it isn't scripture but it is from one of the disciples of John the Evangelist, from the end of the 1st century or the beginning of the 2nd.

Who do you claim that "John the Evabgelist" is?

Are you saying he is John who was the disciple and the writer of Revelation and the gospel of John or is it another John?

 

[PaleHorse]

That is my point .... so therefore if Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath then why are you not celebrating it on Sunday the Lord's Day ... the Day of the Risen Lord?

Because the Bible doesn't instruct us to observe Christ's resurrection on any day of the week.

In fact, how did Christ tell us to observe His death and ressurection? Baptism commemorates the burial and resurrection of Jesus. (Romans 6:3-5) I'm not about to add to Christ's clear teaching.

How did Christ tell us to remember Him? Communion.
Luke 22:19 - And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Corinthians 11:24 - And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Corinthians 11:25 - After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

You'll notice that not once did Christ say to "change My holy day".

 

[prodromos]

John the Evangelist is the author of the Gospel of John, the three Epistles bearing his name, and Revelations.

 

[PaleHorse]

I know it isn't scripture but it is from one of the disciples of John the Evangelist, from the end of the 1st century or the beginning of the 2nd.

I appreciate you posting this, truly, but as has been duly noted I am a Protestant, as such I do not accept post-apostolic writings as a basis for doctrine. I know that many faiths do, and that is their perogative, but I simply do not.

 

[prodromos]

So either Ignatius was a poor student or John taught him some funky stuff in your opinion?

 

[PaleHorse]

Umm that was simply from a dictionary looked up on google the first one that came up thank you so therefore there was no bias in it ....

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound as if I thought the definition in your post was biased - I'm just saying that for purposes of textual criticism I would prefer to stick with the hard and fast definitions of the words rather than interpretations as much as possible.

For instance, the word sabbatismos only refers to "seventh-day Sabbath observance" in 100% of all ancient Greek literature found to date. Yet for some reason the Thayer's and Strong's Lexicons have seen fit to define it in this manner:


1) a keeping sabbath

2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
My question is how do they arrive at definition #2? In the entire Bible there is only one instance of sabbatismos yet they give two definitions? This is what I mean when I say I'd rather have solid definitions rather than interpretations.

 

[PaleHorse]

So either Ignatius was a poor student or John taught him some funky stuff in your opinion?

Who? Me or Cliff2?