Which Commandments?

[cvanwey]

All people will have done that at some stage of time, so that is not what I am stating.

Also God chooses by His own will, not what we have done. We became a different person once touched by His spirit (my own interpretation of the Bible, as not all Christian believe in per-destination).

So please state exactly what IS God's criteria for salvation? How do you know He will choose you? Is it that you worship Him (enough), and/or try to be a good person (enough), and/or do not willfully commit sin (enough), other? Please clarify? What is the criteria for salvation?

 

[doubtingmerle]

@doubtingmerle I don't know about you, but reading through this thread is becoming quite frustrating. I've lost count of how many times the goalposts have been moved by Christisans.

It's not like this question should be catching them off guard. One would have thought they all would had thought this one through.

 

[dcalling]

So please state exactly what IS God's criteria for salvation? How do you know He will choose you? Is it that you worship Him (enough), and/or try to be a good person (enough), and/or do not willfully commit sin (enough), other? Please clarify? What is the criteria for salvation?

God's criteria for salvation: believe in Jesus (i.e. God send Him and he take away our sins by dieing on cross etc). This is an over simplification, but this is good enough to give to people if they only have seconds to live. I don't know who He has chosen or why I was saved.

All others, i.e. worship him, good person (even though none is good) etc are not criteria but as a result of believe in Jesus. Those criteria are given by God as laws to show us how we al fall short as a warning sign.

 

[doubtingmerle]

All others, i.e. worship him, good person (even though none is good) etc are not criteria but as a result of believe in Jesus. Those criteria are given by God as laws to show us how we al fall short as a warning sign.

How can you claim that goodness is the result of being a Christian? In another thread (Are Christians better people on the inside? | Christian Forums) the overwhelming consensus of Christians seems to be that Christians do not become morally superior to others. They say that only baby Christians claim that Christians become morally superior. Do you want me to tell them that you think they are all wrong, that Christians do indeed become morally superior?

 

[doubtingmerle]

"Thou knowest the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, defraud not, honor thy father and mother.’”" Mark 10:19.

1 John 3:15 "Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him".

if we know a=b, b=c
then a=c. The transitive law.

The common definition of murder does not include a fleeting thought of hatred to be an act of murder. How was this man supposed to know that when Jesus said "Don't kill" he meant "don't even ever have a passing thought about murder"?

And how does any of that even matter? You have told us that nobody can get to heaven by the plan that Jesus gave, but instead needs to follow a different plan that requires only belief. So why are you arguing about the details of a plan that you yourself say cannot possibly work?

If you claim to believe in Jesus, yet you willingly commit murder (or hate your brother which is the same), you don't really believe Him.

Why not? You are still human. And humans sometimes fail morally. So how do you know that no Christian will ever commit murder? Is some kind of mind control taking over him and preventing him from murdering, even if he wants to?

And if you truly believe in Jesus, God's spirit will enter you and change you to be better, and not wanting to do those things that is evil to God (you might still do them out of impulse but won't be planned).

This is a claim that Christians are morally superior to unbelievers. By implication, you are claiming that you are morally superior to me.

Please verify that your claim is true.

 

[klutedavid]

Ah, we finally have someone who will give us a final answer. So we find that there are two and only two things that are necessary:

1. Declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord.”
2. Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.​

Notice that this list does not include any restriction on murdering or any requirement to love. In fact, in the post to which you responded I had asked:

So "Do not murder" makes no difference in whether one goes to heaven? One can either murder or not murder, either way, he will still go to heaven as long as he keeps the two commands on your list?​

And you did not answer.

Yes I did answer.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

There are two commandments that were given to us.

There is no debate.

 

[Lukaris]

As I said before:

Nothing is mystifying about practicing basic courtesy toward people. Is this your answer? Just treat people courteously, and you will go to heaven? Or is there more involved?
​

Some places you seem to indicate that all you need is love, and some places you seem to indicate you also need things such as belief. Please give me a list of all the things you think are required to go to heaven.

​

I answered and am out of your shell game. Have a nice day.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Yes I did answer.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

There are two commandments that were given to us.

There is no debate.

Wait, what?

You had given us a list that only had two requirements:

1. Declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord.”
2. Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.​

and you said this was your final answer.

Now it turns out it isn't your final answer. Now we also have:

3. Believe in the name of the Son of God.
4. Love one another.​

Do these four represent your final answer? Or will you change again?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I answered and am out of your shell game. Have a nice day.

You did answer, yes. You basically said all we need is love. Thank you for answering.

I don't think your answer matches well with what Jesus said in Matthew 19, nor with some of the verses that others have submitted here, but at least you had one answer and stuck with it. Good for you.

For everybody else, all I can say is, if you don't like their answer, wait until the next post and it will change.

 

[klutedavid]

Wait, what?

You had given us a list that only had two requirements:

1. Declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord.”
2. Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.​

and you said this was your final answer.

Now it turns out it isn't your final answer. Now we also have:

3. Believe in the name of the Son of God.
4. Love one another.​

Do these four represent your final answer? Or will you change again?

I posted the two new covenant commandments back in post #227. Here is the text for the third time.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Believing in the name of Jesus Christ is the primary and critical commandment.

To love others follows on from that primary commandment.

Matthew 11:30
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I posted the two new covenant commandments back in post #227. Here is the text for the third time.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Believing in the name of Jesus Christ is the primary and critical commandment.

To love others follows on from that primary commandment.

Matthew 11:30
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Understood, you gave an answer, but then you posted a different answer. I asked you if your new answer was your final answer, and in post 234 you said yes. But then you added back in your old answer, and now you appear to switch back to the old answer. Can you please pick a position and stick with it? What is your final answer?

Debating with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

 

[dcalling]

How can you claim that goodness is the result of being a Christian? In another thread (Are Christians better people on the inside? | Christian Forums) the overwhelming consensus of Christians seems to be that Christians do not become morally superior to others. They say that only baby Christians claim that Christians become morally superior. Do you want me to tell them that you think they are all wrong, that Christians do indeed become morally superior?

been a christian does not result in goodness, as any one can claim they are Christian no matter they are chosen by God or not. Goodness come as a result of believing in God, and the Holy Spirit made you know your shortcomings, and give you the willingness to change them.

As I said again and again, goodness is a respect of God, and God give out goodness. "No one is good except God alone"

 

[dcalling]

The common definition of murder does not include a fleeting thought of hatred to be an act of murder. How was this man supposed to know that when Jesus said "Don't kill" he meant "don't even ever have a passing thought about murder"?

This is the definition from God. God has a much higher standards. And all man deep in there heart know hate/covet etc is not good.

And how does any of that even matter? You have told us that nobody can get to heaven by the plan that Jesus gave, but instead needs to follow a different plan that requires only belief. So why are you arguing about the details of a plan that you yourself say cannot possibly work?


Why not? You are still human. And humans sometimes fail morally. So how do you know that no Christian will ever commit murder? Is some kind of mind control taking over him and preventing him from murdering, even if he wants to?

A follower of Christ will fail morally, but they will not fail intentionally (i..e with planning). they could even kill, but they won't murder, God has the mind control (or more like guard rail). Because if someone intentionally murder, they by definition is not a Christian (or not yet), because Christian means Christ like, they are suppose to act like Jesus, love your neighbors, even love and pray for their enemies.

This is a claim that Christians are morally superior to unbelievers. By implication, you are claiming that you are morally superior to me.

Please verify that your claim is true.

It feels like the 5th time I am repeating this. Christians is not necessarily morally superior to unbelievers, they might envy/hate more than some unbelievers. However they do realize they are bad, they know they need the help from God, and they are willing to let God help them to get better.

It is like in a court, one guy owed $5, the other Christian owed $50k. The Christian realized he need help and accepted $50k donation from God while the other guy argued with God he does not owe $5.

 

[klutedavid]

Understood, you gave an answer, but then you posted a different answer. I asked you if your new answer was your final answer, and in post 234 you said yes. But then you added back in your old answer, and now you appear to switch back to the old answer. Can you please pick a position and stick with it? What is your final answer?

Debating with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

The fourth time.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The fourth time.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Sorry, I think I had you confused with somebody else. Ok so this is your final answer:

1) Believe in the name of the Son.
2) Love one another.​

This differs from the answer Jesus gave in Matthew 19.

 

[doubtingmerle]

This is the definition from God. God has a much higher standards. And all man deep in there heart know hate/covet etc is not good.

Yes, hate is bad.

But no, not everybody knows that "Do not kill" means "do not ever have a fleeting thought of hate".

In fact, Jesus specifically stated that this was a new requirement:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: Matthew 5:22-23​

So yes, this was new, and Jesus should not have expected the man to know this.

But what does any of this matter? You keep telling us that the way to heaven described in Matthew 19--follow the law--does not work, so why dwell on it?

A follower of Christ will fail morally, but they will not fail intentionally (i..e with planning). they could even kill, but they won't murder, God has the mind control (or more like guard rail).

OK, so you say some non-Christians murder, but no Christian ever murders.

In other words followers of Christ have become better moral people than non-believers. I disagree. I address that assertion here: Are Christians better people on the inside? | Christian Forums

Because if someone intentionally murder, they by definition is not a Christian (or not yet),

Got it. As far as I can tell, your list of requirements for heaven looks like this:

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus
2. Don't intentionally murder.
​

Is this your final list, or is there more? (And please don't divert the question by arguing there is also an unworkable plan by following the law, and please don't divert the question by talking about what causes goodness. I am asking what you must do, not what causes you to do it.)

​

because Christian means Christ like, they are suppose to act like Jesus, love your neighbors, even love and pray for their enemies.

OK, we are supposed to love. But both Christians and non-Christians sometimes do things they are not supposed to do.

It feels like the 5th time I am repeating this. Christians is not necessarily morally superior to unbelievers, they might envy/hate more than some unbelievers.

And yet you say Christians have become such that they never, ever, intentionally murder, but Atheists do. How is that not a claim of having become morally superior?

However they [Christians] do realize they are bad

In other words, Christians have low self esteem.

However they do realize they are bad, they know they need the help from God, and they are willing to let God help them to get better.

Got it. You realize you need help and you let God help you. And you think that this has made you incapable of intentional murder, whereas nonbelievers are capable of it.

In other words, you are saying that you have become morally superior to unbelievers.

It is like in a court, one guy owed $5, the other Christian owed $50k. The Christian realized he need help and accepted $50k donation from God while the other guy argued with God he does not owe $5.

I make mistakes and admit it. See post above where I said I was sorry.

 

[cvanwey]

@dcalling Please note... I am not trying to come off as looking like a troll. However, if Christians are correct, and Jesus is the judge and jury of human salvation, I would sure like to know how one is saved, verses not. But I must warn you, I'm starting to see @doubtingmerle 's frustration. No one seems to give a clear answer here; in spite of the fact that it looks to be quite an important topic/question?

God's criteria for salvation: believe in Jesus (i.e. God send Him and he take away our sins by dieing on cross etc). This is an over simplification, but this is good enough to give to people if they only have seconds to live.

So if a mass murderer, career rapist, 'brutal' gang member, mob boss, or other gets caught and sentenced to death, and they come to Jesus (earnestly), seconds before they are put to death, this is enough for them?

I don't know who He has chosen or why I was saved.

@dcalling You have the opportunity to bow out right now, and state that you have no idea how one gets to heaven. If you admit this now, I can dismiss all your other responses as mere speculation/hope, at best. Is this really what you are saying? That you do not know who will be saved, even though you have read the Bible?

How do you know you are saved?

All others, i.e. worship him, good person (even though none is good) etc are not criteria but as a result of believe in Jesus. Those criteria are given by God as laws to show us how we al fall short as a warning sign.

So one must 'worship' Him? Which might mean, acknowledge He is one's God, pray to Him, and repent to Him. Also, try not to sin, even though this is not possible??? Is this your answer, as given by God?

 

[dcalling]

Yes, hate is bad.

But no, not everybody knows that "Do not kill" means "do not ever have a fleeting thought of hate".

In fact, Jesus specifically stated that this was a new requirement:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: Matthew 5:22-23​

So yes, this was new, and Jesus should not have expected the man to know this.

Man knows this, from my own experience. The reason I give up Buddhism is the realization that I can never get rid of covet/hate. If you don't hate or you know someone who won't hate/covet, let me know God created us with his own image, and man have knowledge of good/bad. are you denying that man does not know good/evil?

But what does any of this matter? You keep telling us that the way to heaven described in Matthew 19--follow the law--does not work, so why dwell on it?

Jesus give the most important one last: sell all and follow Him.

OK, so you say some non-Christians murder, but no Christian ever murders.

In other words followers of Christ have become better moral people than non-believers. I disagree. I address that assertion here: Are Christians better people on the inside? | Christian Forums



Got it. As far as I can tell, your list of requirements for heaven looks like this:

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus
2. Don't intentionally murder.
​

As I said again and again, follow the law is not a requirement, it is a by product.

So the only requirement is Believe in God, it is not just know God as devil know God as well, it means know God's character and trust/believe God above everything else, and accept God's salvation that Jesus died on cross for you.

​

Is this your final list, or is there more? (And please don't divert the question by arguing there is also an unworkable plan by following the law, and please don't divert the question by talking about what causes goodness. I am asking what you must do, not what causes you to do it.)

​

OK, we are supposed to love. But both Christians and non-Christians sometimes do things they are not supposed to do.


And yet you say Christians have become such that they never, ever, intentionally murder, but Atheists do. How is that not a claim of having become morally superior?


In other words, Christians have low self esteem.


Got it. You realize you need help and you let God help you. And you think that this has made you incapable of intentional murder, whereas nonbelievers are capable of it.

In other words, you are saying that you have become morally superior to unbelievers.



I make mistakes and admit it. See post above where I said I was sorry.

After I think about this, I think you are right, Christians (I should call true followers of Christ, as there are way more fake christians out there) should be morally superior to unbelievers, because we have the help of Holy Spirit (and Jesus said if one's moral is not higher than the pharises they can't go to heaven).

And I saw your post. You do realize that evolution of moral is impossible right? As there is no "model" for moral and self awareness, so they can't be implmented as code (computer programming), and if we can't do it, natural can't evolve it.

 

[dcalling]

@dcalling Please note... I am not trying to come off as looking like a troll. However, if Christians are correct, and Jesus is the judge and jury of human salvation, I would sure like to know how one is saved, verses not. But I must warn you, I'm starting to see @doubtingmerle 's frustration. No one seems to give a clear answer here; in spite of the fact that it looks to be quite an important topic/question?

I told you multiple times, but you seems can't see it... Here is my answer to @doubtingmerle:

So the only requirement is Believe in God, it is not just know God as devil know God as well, it means trust/believe God above everything else, and accept God's salvation that Jesus died on cross for you.

EDIT: Added on, to clarify, as you seems to be real this time, all other things (i.e. love your neighbor, no covet, no muder etc) comes as by product of this, as you believe in God, God will change you, and you will became better and better. Not the other way around, where in most other religions/human thinking, that the good things you do make you better.

So if a mass murderer, career rapist, 'brutal' gang member, mob boss, or other gets caught and sentenced to death, and they come to Jesus (earnestly), seconds before they are put to death, this is enough for them?

You finally got it, that is correct.

@dcalling You have the opportunity to bow out right now, and state that you have no idea how one gets to heaven. If you admit this now, I can dismiss all your other responses as mere speculation/hope, at best. Is this really what you are saying? That you do not know who will be saved, even though you have read the Bible?

How do you know you are saved?

If someone is saved or not is strictly between him and God. No one else can see their heart (we can do best guesses based on their beheavior, but people can disguis well).

I know I am saved based on my criteria mentioned above.

So one must 'worship' Him? Which might mean, acknowledge He is one's God, pray to Him, and repent to Him. Also, try not to sin, even though this is not possible??? Is this your answer, as given by God?

See my criteria above. I am saved and I will sin, all humans will sin, only God does not sin.

 

[cvanwey]

I told you multiple times, but you seems can't see it... Here is my answer to @doubtingmerle:

So the only requirement is Believe in God, it is not just know God as devil know God as well, it means trust/believe God above everything else, and accept God's salvation that Jesus died on cross for you.

EDIT: Added on, to clarify, as you seems to be real this time, all other things (i.e. love your neighbor, no covet, no muder etc) comes as by product of this, as you believe in God, God will change you, and you will became better and better. Not the other way around, where in most other religions/human thinking, that the good things you do make you better.


You finally got it, that is correct.



If someone is saved or not is strictly between him and God. No one else can see their heart (we can do best guesses based on their beheavior, but people can disguis well).

I know I am saved based on my criteria mentioned above.



See my criteria above. I am saved and I will sin, all humans will sin, only God does not sin.

Sounds like you are saying the way to salvation is as follows:

"37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself." (i.e.):

You must Worship the correct and only God; and if you do so earnestly, you will do more and more 'good' as a direct result? Is this your final answer?

If so, I have a followup Q:

If Stalin laid forth genuine repent to Christ, just before his death, and a devout Hindu, who never murdered, raped, trespassed, and respected his/her parents, dies believing the Hindu god Brahman; Stalin will be in eternal bliss and the Hindu will be in eternal burning?