Which Commandments?

[doubtingmerle]

However, if you truly seek God then it's good to pray that God opens your heart and mind to His truth, while you seek the answers you need.

Did that. But the answer I found is different from the answer you expect. Is that OK, or must I force myself to believe the answer you expect?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Did that. But the answer I found is different from the answer you expect. Is that OK, or must I force myself to believe the answer you expect?

I don't "expect" anything...

I just know the answer is there when you look to find truth, rather than looking to disprove the faith of others.

But that's far different than having expectations...

I wish you well...

 

[Tinker Grey]

I don't "expect" anything...

I just know the answer is there when you look to find truth, rather than looking to disprove the faith of others.

But that's far different than having expectations...

I wish you well...

I spent the better part of 44 years searching for the truth. I was a Christian during that time. And yet, searching for the truth and NOT trying to disprove the faith led me away from it.

(Yeah, yeah, I know. Search harder. I was doing it wrong. I had wrong motivations. Whatever.)

 

[Hazelelponi]

I spent the better part of 44 years searching for the truth. I was a Christian during that time. And yet, searching for the truth and NOT trying to disprove the faith led me away from it.

(Yeah, yeah, I know. Search harder. I was doing it wrong. I had wrong motivations. Whatever.)

Yet your here, on a Christian forum, for what?

To learn?

To prove your point?

To try and separate the faithful from their faith?

It doesn't in the least bother me or my faith that some haven't come to faith or that others will never come to faith...

I just find it dubious at best, those who create a thread, get lots of answers and the thread gets closed so they open another thread on the same topic.

That's not wanting the truth at all... that's not seeking in humility the God of all creation, nor is it humbly admitting it's thesis may be incorrect.

Sure you may have come to unbelief, but then, why are you still here? Hate?

I'm formerly from another faith, but I'm not on their faith forums spouting about how wrong I think they are, I'm on mine to learn more and engage with other likeminded people.

So I honestly don't get it, if there wasn't something bothering you, some inner part of your being telling you that you may have missed something, then why are you here?

So I answer to the best of my ability in the hopes that you will hear some thing you needed to make all the pieces fit.

But I find it doubtful that will help... that's why I pray to God for those who are lost, as that's most likely to be helpful.

Just my thoughts anyway...

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yet your here, on a Christian forum, for what?

To learn?

To prove your point?

To try and separate the faithful from their faith?

It doesn't in the least bother me or my faith that some haven't come to faith or that others will never come to faith...

I just find it dubious at best, those who create a thread, get lots of answers and the thread gets closed so they open another thread on the same topic.

That's not wanting the truth at all... that's not seeking in humility the God of all creation, nor is it humbly admitting it's thesis may be incorrect.

Sure you may have come to unbelief, but then, why are you still here? Hate?

I'm formerly from another faith, but I'm not on their faith forums spouting about how wrong I think they are, I'm on mine to learn more and engage with other likeminded people.

So I honestly don't get it, if there wasn't something bothering you, some inner part of your being telling you that you may have missed something, then why are you here?

So I answer to the best of my ability in the hopes that you will hear some thing you needed to make all the pieces fit.

But I find it doubtful that will help... that's why I pray.

I was a Christian for my 1st 6 years on this forum. I enjoy and stayed the conversation.

And you might stop with tired old trope that if we look for truth we'll find what you found. You're wrong.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I was a Christian for my 1st 6 years on this forum. I enjoy and stayed the conversation.

And you might stop with tired old trope that if we look for truth we'll find what you found. You're wrong.

I don't think everyone will... I'm not that much of an optimist.

Jesus came for those God placed in His Hand, and while that is people from every tribe, nation and tongue, it's not every person ever born.

I'm a Calvinist.. perfectly happy for others to believe what they want, it's between them and God in the end, not them and myself.

But if people ask questions, I'll answer according to Scripture. And I do think there is a desire and intent to know God that is missing in some people's prayers.. and have no issues saying so.

Most people want a God they designed in their own image, not a God who is truely God, that they neither control nor designed.

 

[Paulomycin]

When asked which commandments were needed for eternal life, he listed 7.

Which does not even remotely imply there are absolutely and only "7" of them exclusively.

You think there are more than 7? Ok, how many commandments does one need to keep to get to heaven? Where can I find the full list?

The entire Torah is considered the "full list." Matthew 5:18, Numbers 15:22, Deuteronomy 10:12, Deuteronomy 27:26. <-- "All" means "all."

Oh, but I have--6 times. Every chapter, every verse, every line.

Have you read the entire Old Testament?

Yes. You can claim you have all day long, but your own posts betray you.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Which does not even remotely imply there are absolutely and only "7" of them exclusively.

Uh, actually it does.

The man asked which commandments he needed to follow and Jesus listed 7. He never told them there were a few he neglected to say.

The entire Torah is considered the "full list." Matthew 5:18, Numbers 15:22, Deuteronomy 10:12, Deuteronomy 27:26. <-- "All" means "all."

OK, you say to get to heaven I need to keep all of them. That must include keeping Saturday holy and not wearing clothes made of two different fabrics, huh?

Yes. You can claim you have all day long, but your own posts betray you.

You asked a question. I answered. When I was in high school and college I read the Bible through every year for 6 years.

I followed up by asking you, have you ever read through the entire Old Testament? Every word? I have not seen your answer.

 

[Paulomycin]

Uh, actually it does.

Uh, actually it doesn't, because you're just eisegetically reading-into it. It can very easily be the case that the listing was interrupted and/or suspended on a particular detail. In this case, it happened to be the ruler's wealth.

The man asked which commandments he needed to follow and Jesus listed 7. He never told them there were a few he neglected to say.

You know, like how some people try to 2nd-guess what someone's going to say, before they're even finished speaking.

Besides, Jesus directly teaches against covetousness in both Mark 7:22 and Luke 12:15.

OK, you say to get to heaven I need to keep all of them. That must include keeping Saturday holy and not wearing clothes made of two different fabrics, huh?

Because you have the mistaken assumption that the ceremonial laws are lumped-in with the moral laws. And what part of "Jesus is our Sabbath" did you deliberately fail to comprehend?

You asked a question. I answered. When I was in high school and college I read the Bible through every year for 6 years.

You're not demonstrating it.

I followed up by asking you, have you ever read through the entire Old Testament? Every word? I have not seen your answer.

You deliberately skipped over the direct "Yes." And I'm pretty much demonstrating how I've obviously read more OT than you, because you're still trying to force your own eisegesis.

 

[Paulomycin]

You asked a question. I answered. When I was in high school and college I read the Bible through every year for 6 years.

It's not really meant to be read as a paperback novel.

 

[doubtingmerle]

It can very easily be the case that the listing was interrupted and/or suspended on a particular detail. In this case, it happened to be the ruler's wealth.

Uh, no, that's not why Jesus stopped the list. Jesus didn't even mention giving away riches in the first list.

Jesus was specifically asked which commandments are needed to get to heaven and Jesus listed six. Only after the man followed up, with "What lack I yet?" did Jesus add a seventh requirement--sell all that you have and give to the poor.

That last one is a little odd. Abraham, Job, Solomon and others were rich. None of them was commanded to sell all that they have and give to the poor. But Jesus pulls this commandment out of nowhere and puts this demand on this man. It's not at all surprising that he balked.

Besides, Jesus directly teaches against covetousness in both Mark 7:22 and Luke 12:15.

I didn't ask you if Jesus taught against covetousness. I asked if not coveting is a requirement to get to heaven.

Because if there is a God who looks into your mind 24-7, and will punish you if you want something you should not want, then you not only need to guard your actions, but guard your wants. And if a want comes up that is out of line, then the mere fact of having that want condemns you. That is a miserable way to live life. I know. I used to do that.

I think it is better to acknowledge your feelings, and then resolve the best action, rather than prevent yourself from having that feeling.

Because you have the mistaken assumption that the ceremonial laws are lumped-in with the moral laws. And what part of "Jesus is our Sabbath" did you deliberately fail to comprehend?

I asked you which laws and you said all of them. Now you qualified them and said only the moral laws. So it is not really all of them?

Which laws are "moral" and which are merely ceremonial? If there are hundreds of laws, and we only need to follow the "moral" ones, where can I find the list of laws I need to follow to get to heaven?

You deliberately skipped over the direct "Yes."

Sorry, no, it was not deliberate. I see now that you say you read the whole Old Testament.

Reading the Bible is one of the easiest ways to find that there is something very wrong with that book. Those who never read it beyond a few hand-picked verses have no idea what is there.

 

[Lukaris]

Jesus told the young man plainly keep on observing the commandments that both already knew. The young man thought he lacked something so Jesus then felt if he sought discipleship, then to sell all. The young man did not get it; either steer the course or be a disciple of the Lord.

 

[Lion IRC]

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

"...Six hundred and thirteen commandments were given to Moses, three hundred and sixty-five negative ones, corresponding to the number of the days of the solar year, and two hundred forty-eight positive commandments, corresponding to the parts of man’s body. “‘David came and reduced them to eleven…. “‘Isaiah came and reduced them to six…. “‘Isaiah again came and reduced them to two…. “‘Habakkuk further came and based them on one, as it is said: “But the righteous shall live by his faith”’ (Hab 2:4).”

 

[doubtingmerle]

"...Six hundred and thirteen commandments were given to Moses, three hundred and sixty-five negative ones, corresponding to the number of the days of the solar year, and two hundred forty-eight positive commandments, corresponding to the parts of man’s body. “‘David came and reduced them to eleven…. “‘Isaiah came and reduced them to six…. “‘Isaiah again came and reduced them to two…. “‘Habakkuk further came and based them on one, as it is said: “But the righteous shall live by his faith”’ (Hab 2:4).”

So Jesus was mistaken when he said there were 7 laws one needed to follow to get to heaven?

 

[doubtingmerle]

The young man thought he lacked something so Jesus then felt if he sought discipleship, then to sell all. The young man did not get it;

So if somebody wants to go to heaven they need to sell all that they have?

 

[Paulomycin]

Uh, no, that's not why Jesus stopped the list. Jesus didn't even mention giving away riches in the first list.

Regardless, you cannot infer what clearly wasn't explicitly said. Next time, stop trying so hard.

Jesus was specifically asked which commandments are needed to get to heaven and Jesus listed six. Only after the man followed up, with "What lack I yet?" did Jesus add a seventh requirement--sell all that you have and give to the poor.

Meaning that the first 6 weren't at all complete and so you can't assume that 7 are either.

That last one is a little odd. Abraham, Job, Solomon and others were rich. None of them was commanded to sell all that they have and give to the poor. But Jesus pulls this commandment out of nowhere and puts this demand on this man. It's not at all surprising that he balked.

Because the narrative says that Jesus could read hearts and minds. -Matthew 9:4, John 2:24

I didn't ask you if Jesus taught against covetousness. I asked if not coveting is a requirement to get to heaven.

And I answered. Please read more slowly and stop cherrypicking: Yes, keeping the entire law of Moses is required to get to Heaven, and YES, human beings born into sin are 100% incapable of keeping it at all. No one could do it except Jesus.

I asked you which laws and you said all of them. Now you qualified them and said only the moral laws. So it is not really all of them?

I had erroneously assumed you were referring only to the moral laws.

Which laws are "moral" and which are merely ceremonial? If there are hundreds of laws, and we only need to follow the "moral" ones, where can I find the list of laws I need to follow to get to heaven?

You don't know the difference? You claimed you read the Bible through 6 times!

Reading the Bible is one of the easiest ways to find that there is something very wrong with that book. Those who never read it beyond a few hand-picked verses have no idea what is there.

Only when you read it with a forced eisegetical presupposition. You're trying to contextualize the entire scripture through a framed narrative. That's bias.

 

[Lukaris]

So if somebody wants to go to heaven they need to sell all that they have?

No, Christ already told him what he needed to do which was life his life keeping the commandments. The young man insisted he lacked something so the Lord offered him direct discipleship if he really sought to be “perfect” ( Matthew 19:21) & that involved selling all.

 

[Lion IRC]

So Jesus was mistaken when he said there were 7 laws one needed to follow to get to heaven?

No.
Maybe different people need more/less laws.
Jesus simplified all the laws into two. Love God. Love your fellow humans.
Also...laws change.
#apodictic #casuistic

 

[doubtingmerle]

No.
Maybe different people need more/less laws.
Jesus simplified all the laws into two. Love God. Love your fellow humans.
Also...laws change.
#apodictic #casuistic

Wait, what?

Jesus said you needed to follow 7 commandments to get to heaven.

But that got changed to 2?

So that's it? If I love God and love my fellow humans I go to heaven? If not, then I'm toast?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Meaning that the first 6 weren't at all complete and so you can't assume that 7 are either.

Jesus said, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: " Was that not true?

Was he really saying, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and then do a whole lot of other things, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven"?

Why did Jesus leave out the fine print?

Because the narrative says that Jesus could read hearts and minds. -Matthew 9:4, John 2:24

The question is whether one needs to sell all that he has to go to heaven. Rich people like Abraham, Job, and Solomon were never told that. Is that fair to make up a new commandment out of thin air for this man?

Do we or do we not need to sell all that we have to get to heaven?

Yes, keeping the entire law of Moses is required to get to Heaven,

And there is no way around it? Everybody who breaks one of the laws of Moses burns in hell forever? There is no "get out of hell free" card? You will not come back and tell us that some people have an exemption?

and YES, human beings born into sin are 100% incapable of keeping it at all. No one could do it except Jesus.

If all must do 100%, and none of us humans do it, then none of us will go to heaven.

I had erroneously assumed you were referring only to the moral laws.

Sir, you said "keeping the entire law of Moses is required to get to Heaven,"

Now you are changing that to say "keeping the entire moral law of Moses is required to get to Heaven,"

Which one of his laws are moral, and which aren't?

You don't know the difference? You claimed you read the Bible through 6 times!

Cut out the insults. Answer the question please. If we need to follow some of the laws of Moses to get to heaven, where can I find a list of laws that are required to get to heaven?