Which Church is THE Church?

[JacksBratt]

JWs are a Christian cult not a Christian denomination.

How do you determine which is a cult and which is a denomination

 

[Albion]

I've read that before. Could you please elaborate on "cult" and
what makes J.W.'s a cult.
Curious not argumentative.

The word "cult" is, in recent use, applied to a religious body that is based upon the Christian faith but departs from it in one of several ways that are so fundamental that doing so puts them outside the many doctrinal disagreements (on baptism, the Lord's Supper, millennialism, Purgatory, etc.) that separate the various Christian denominations. One of these is the nature of God. JWs deny that Christ is God in the flesh.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

JWs are a Christian cult not a Christian denomination.

I've read that before. Could you please elaborate on "cult" and
what makes J.W.'s a cult.
Curious not argumentative.
Due to my childhood raised by an agnostic father and a J.W.
mother I STILL feel guilty if I take apart in Christmas.
Ain't that awful? It IS awful in fact.
A story.
Mom worked at a place that made Genie garage door openers.
She and her brothers were J.W.'s.
Her brother asked her to "get" him a garage opener.
That meant STEAL it.
Not easy but the employees could slip one over the fence to be
"retrieved" at night.
So mother "got" one for the J.W. brother.
Answer me a question.
Is that hypocritical?
Theft?
Methinks so.
Well ALL Christians are human ain't they?
Oh! Did I mention the J.W. I ARRESTED for screwing his
12 year old grand daughter?
I got shunned by the other J.W.'s for that as it looked
bad for the congregation don'cha'know?
HEY. This post is kind of liberating as I don't feel "god" is
going to "get me" for telling the truth.
HAH!
I'm in A.A. recovery for alcoholism. THAT is frowned upon
by J.W.'s as it's "part of this world" and one need only
pray for recovery from addiction.
Yeah, right.
However in A.A. We ALL prayer to a Power greater than
ourselves for relief from addiction.
A.A. works but one must work it!

Here, at Christian Forums, we define "orthodox" Christianity by the Biblical Standard as it is expressed in the Nicene Creed (our Statement of Faith). Since their teachings regarding the dual natures of Christ conflict with our Statement of Faith; with that of the Bible, CF considers them non Christian; likewise with the Mormon Chruch.

Statement of Faith
CF supports the following as a statement of faith:

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.
Non-Nicene unorthodox Christian topics may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Christianity & World Religion forum and the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Annihilationism
● Gnosticism​

​

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

How do you determine which is a cult and which is a denomination

Not how we define a cult, but how we define Christian: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/which-church-is-the-church.7964335/page-12#post-70101621

 

[jeager016]

This is really irrelevant, however. Each denomination may think it's right (but not that it's THE Church, which is what the thread asked), but although there are thousands of such churches, there may indeed still be one among them that actually is right. Isn't that so?

But which one?
Is the question.

 

[Albion]

Sure, that's the question. I was saying only that the familiar complaint which runs something like this...

"There are 30,000 different denominations, so none of them can be right."

Isn't really correct to say. A gigantic number of churches that are wrong in various ways doesn't mean a thing. There still can be one that isn't wrong, so the issue is purely a matter of finding the one that isn't wrong. That's unless someone wants to argue that there aren't or can't be any that are right.

 

[jeager016]

Christian denominations that deny the Trinity.
Are all doomed to hell?
Or whatever place "bad" Christians go?

http://christianity.about.com/od/christiandoctrines/tp/denytrinity.htm
This site lists Christians that don't hold with the Trinity.

 

[jeager016]

Sure, that's the question. I was saying only that the familiar complaint which runs something like this...

"There are 30,000 different denominations, so none of them can be right."

Isn't really correct to say. A gigantic number of churches that are wrong in various ways doesn't mean a thing. There still can be one that isn't wrong, so the issue is purely a matter of finding the one that isn't wrong. That's unless someone wants to argue that there aren't or can't be any that are right.

So enlighten us and do tell which Christian denomination
isn't wrong?
Then back up the claim but only if you wish to.
At least 30,000 Christian denominations so which one or ones
are the "right" one(s).
Westboro hate group?
Jehovah's Witnesses?
Catholic ? Which group of Catholic?
Baptists?
Rattlesnake handling Pentecostals?
If it could be demonstrated which Christian denomination was the
one "right" one I think we'd all be members and this site and others
like this one would not exist.
Maybe the Wiccans have "it" nailed down.
Ask 'em.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_beli.htm

 

[Albion]

Christian denominations that deny the Trinity.
Are all doomed to hell?
Or whatever place "bad" Christians go?.

There's no reason to make that your argument. The question you was asked about what causes any religious body to be classified as a cult...and I answered that question.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

No, I absolutely am not, but I will say this...

I thought at the time that your point (in post 185) wasn't exactly receptionism. I tried to allow for that in my reply but your later posts did seem to be backing up the receptionism POV. I could also be wrong about that. But I have never heard of a POV that isn't actually receptionism but yet says that the change from simple bread and wine is accomplished more or less as the older churches think is the case BUT ONLY WHEN the elements hit the lips of the communicant.

I object to picking through the practice of the Lord's Supper using man's principles or words to govern the meanings we see there, we should let the Bible's words stand...I know, this means I shouldn't have joined into the conversation to begin with.

 

[Albion]

So enlighten us and do tell which Christian denomination
isn't wrong?
Then back up the claim but only if you wish to.

That's for you to decide for yourself. My post was concerned with correcting the mistaken assumption that if there are thousands of denominations, it follows that none of them can be right. Of course there remains the possibility that one of them IS right, no matter how many denominations there are.

 

[Albion]

I object to picking through the practice of the Lord's Supper using man's principles or words to govern the meanings we see there, we should let the Bible's words stand...I know, this means I shouldn't have joined into the conversation to begin with.

That was just an example of something that doesn't qualify for the church being labelled a cult. It wasn't the main part of the reply and no one's saying that you shouldn't be here.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Christian denominations that deny the Trinity.
Are all doomed to hell?
Or whatever place "bad" Christians go?

http://christianity.about.com/od/christiandoctrines/tp/denytrinity.htm
This site lists Christians that don't hold with the Trinity.

This is not for us to judge, but many trinitarian Churches believe that if if a church does teaches something other than the this, that they are not worshiping the same God, or in some cases, polytheism.

 

[jeager016]

This is not for us to judge, but many trinitarian Churches believe that if if a church does teaches something other than the this, that they are not worshiping the same God, or in some cases, polytheism.

I like that^^.
About judging. I quit that long ago except in some extreme
examples of humans acting as animals.
Like committing mass murder in the name of some "god".
People that harm little children.
And a few other animals.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Again, you are working with man-made rules to say the individual takes credit. Jesus often asked if the one he was going to heal if they had faith He could heal them. Are they to receive credit for the miracle? No anyone knows only God performs the miracle and on whom He deems to have the mercy.

Should add that you and Mark have been writing about I believe church confessions. These confessions as quoted speak of the worthiness of the recipient as does Paul in I Corinthians 11...do you see this worthiness as a potential then of being deemed receptionism?
The way I see it one must have the proper belief or faith to truly receive Christ's body and blood...Paul himself eludes to this in ICorinthians 11.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That was just an example of something that doesn't qualify for the church being labelled a cult. It wasn't the main part of the reply and no one's saying that you shouldn't be here.

No, I realize you weren't telling me I shouldn't be here...only my own self-judgment! I always appreciate your dialogue.

 

[Albion]

No, I realize you weren't telling me I shouldn't be here...only my own self-judgment!

 

[Strong in Him]

I've read that before. Could you please elaborate on "cult" and
what makes J.W.'s a cult.
Curious not argumentative.

I'll try.

For me, the marks of a cult are:
- They don't accept the Trinity. There may be other Christian doctrines they also don't accept, but the Trinity is the main one.
- They have another book/publication besides the Bible to which they give more importance. JWs have The Watchtower, Christian Scientists have Science and Health, Moonies have the Divine Principle. The Mormons I met the other day were quick to tell me that they read the Bible and that it's a "great book", but they were giving away copies of the book of Mormon and telling me to read it alongside the Bible. Some other groups give the impression that if they could ditch the Bible altogether, they would, as the book by their founder is far more important. The founder of the JWs changed their Bible so that John 1:1 says "in the beginning was the word .... and the word was A God".
- Many cults insist that they alone have the truth. Some condone lying to people to get them interested, because non cult members all belong to the devil, and there's nothing wrong with lying to the devil. They may also say that their church is the only true church. I have spoken to JWs on my doorstep and said that I am a Christian. They may say "we're christians too" but instead of being pleased that they have found a fellow Christian and that you go to church, believe and have fellowship, they will try to persuade you to go, instead, to their church. Or they may listen to your beliefs, but still plug their book, their meetings and their leaders. If I was going door to door and I met someone who said "I'm a Christian, I go to the Anglican church", I'd say "that's great!" Maybe we'd talk about the Lord and our beliefs, maybe we wouldn't. But I wouldn't tell them that unless they joined the Methodists they are not really saved.
- There are stories, testimonies and accounts of people being brainwashed to get them to stay in the cult. People record being followed/pestered constantly, so they don't have time to themselves to think about the cult's teaching, having to fundraise for the cult, which tires them out so they don't have time to question and are too exhausted to think rationally. The cult may encourage the potential member to cut themselves off from family and friends who "are of the devil and don't understand the cult's work", but this means the convert will have no friends except those in the cult and no one to ask if the cult's teachings are correct.

There might be other marks that I'm not aware of.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jesus only built one Church and it is 2000 years old. The Catholic Church has spread his message to every nation on earth. 1.2 billion strong and growing by the 10s of millions each year.

Jesus continues to build his church. However, red telling yellow and blue that they are not a representation of the light because red claims to be the true light is unproductive.

 

[Strong in Him]

Incidentally, I don't think that one of these, on it's own, is enough to believe that someone is in a cult.
Someone could be a Christian and yet genuinely struggle with the idea of the Trinity; that doesn't make them a cult member. Likewise, the OP seems genuinely convinced that the catholic church is the only true one - but Catholicism is a Christian denomination.