• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Which bible?

T

theophilus777

Guest
That is good to hear. I wonder what you make of the Euthyphro Dilemma.

Psalm 1 covers that: it is a non-dilemma, written by one "sitting in the scoffer's seat."


I wonder if that is cherry-picking.

Yes. I read it like anyone reads any other book: start to finish.

This is your basic problem, as seen here:

Okay. How do we know which commands should be followed?

Your confusion stems from not having a balanced "diet" of Scripture. A good place to start is with John;'s gospel, then read through the NT, in order. You cover all the essentials, and quickly get to the all the good stuff. You are left with the realization that there is much you don't yet know, w/ being burdened by all the dilemmas the OT presents.

Its not cherry picking because you simply aren't ready for the harder things yet, which is something you should be able to recognize by now.

I don't see a contrast.

The contrast is as clear as what we see in Hebrews, that we are to labor to enter into His rest. You mention hard cognitive work. Scripture says we HAVE the mind of Christ.

I didn't say that jesus had a pattern of non-rational behaviour, just that the accounts we have about him make him seem non-rational.

Just like reading Revelation, this shows is there is much we do not yet know. This is the realm of the Spirit, and ultimately what we are to be drawn to. It does have the ability to transform us, and transcend us above circumstance, which is why so many have endured in the Faith for so long. Notice that one of the great lessons of the OT is that from without, there is no beauty for us to desire any of this; but from within? ALL of that changes!
 
Upvote 0

workmx

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
524
2
52
✟703.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Psalm 1 covers that: it is a non-dilemma, written by one "sitting in the scoffer's seat."

Euthyphro Dilemma said:
"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

NIV said:
Psalm 1

1 Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.

4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

I don't see how Psalm 1 addresses the Euthyphro Dilemma.

Unless you are saying that the morally good is what is commanded by God.

But that would contradict your previous statement that you would disobedy god is commanded to kill, rape and/or enslave.

This is your basic problem, as seen here:

Your confusion stems from not having a balanced "diet" of Scripture. A good place to start is with John;'s gospel, then read through the NT, in order. You cover all the essentials, and quickly get to the all the good stuff. You are left with the realization that there is much you don't yet know, w/ being burdened by all the dilemmas the OT presents.

Why should the bible be treated diferently from other books?

If I don't understand Harry Potter having read it cover to cover, how would going back and reading only sleected parts make it easier to comprehend?

Sounds like special pleading, as well as cherry-picking, to me.

Its not cherry picking because you simply aren't ready for the harder things yet, which is something you should be able to recognize by now.

At what point will I be "ready"?

Again this sounds like special pleading, as well as cherry-picking, to me.

The contrast is as clear as what we see in Hebrews, that we are to labor to enter into His rest. You mention hard cognitive work. Scripture says we HAVE the mind of Christ.

Why not adopt a more parsimonious approach?

Just like reading Revelation, this shows is there is much we do not yet know. This is the realm of the Spirit, and ultimately what we are to be drawn to. It does have the ability to transform us, and transcend us above circumstance, which is why so many have endured in the Faith for so long. Notice that one of the great lessons of the OT is that from without, there is no beauty for us to desire any of this; but from within? ALL of that changes!

It is good to see that you admit that there are things that we do not yet know.

It makes me think of the big bang.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,708
11,023
New Jersey
✟1,472,458.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
My view would be that God doesn't just arbitrarily decide what is good. Both the ethics that he teaches and what we understand as good by observing how the world works come from a common source: what he is. For him to command something evil would create an inconsistency at the heart of reality. I don't think I can say how one should behave in an inherently inconsistent universe.
 
Upvote 0

workmx

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
524
2
52
✟703.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
My view would be that God doesn't just arbitrarily decide what is good. Both the ethics that he teaches and what we understand as good by observing how the world works come from a common source: what he is. For him to command something evil would create an inconsistency at the heart of reality. I don't think I can say how one should behave in an inherently inconsistent universe.

I think we have already covered the issue of god being evil over here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7829501/

And to some degree here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7819649/

Hedrick - I am, however, curious about your use of the word reality.

You seem to think that gods are real, is that correct?
 
Upvote 0
T

theophilus777

Guest
I don't see how Psalm 1 addresses the Euthyphro Dilemma.

It is written by one sitting in the scoffer's seat. It is not a legitimate question. it attempts to avoid the reality of God, and encourages the person addressing it to do so. Tl;dr: Euthyphro is a nogoodnick.


Unless you are saying that the morally good is what is commanded by God.

But that would contradict your previous statement that you would disobedy god is commanded to kill, rape and/or enslave.

?

We have a failure to communicate in here somewhere.

Why should the bible be treated diferently from other books?

Mostly because it IS different. The first book is a book, not a chapter of a larger book. There are 66 distinct books within the smallest canon, and I think over 100 in the largest. You are confused because when you read books of history, you did not discern it any differently from books of law, or poetry, or moral dilemma, or Gospel. That one mistake accounts for all of your confusion that I see here. How much more confusion do you have that is caused by this same mistake, that hasn't surfaced yet?

If I don't understand Harry Potter having read it cover to cover, how would going back and reading only sleected parts make it easier to comprehend?

Sounds like special pleading, as well as cherry-picking, to me.

Only because you confuse Scripture with Harry Potter. That line of reasoning isn't going to get you any where. Following that anyway; are all the books written in chronological order? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the movies weren't made in chronological order. If you were to read them in chronological order, regardless of what order they were written in, or the way the series goes, it might make more sense and be more readily understood?

But in your Harry Potter example, you understand that the whole series of books is about ... Harry Potter. Your questions re: the Bible indicate you have no idea who the Bible, as a collection of books, is about. So you would do well to realize that your line of thinking here doesn't serve you well - unless your goal is to remain in confusion. One would think adjusting your thinking to something that better fits the material would be a welcome relief.

At what point will I be "ready"?

Mastering the basics before moving on is required in any pursuit.

Why not adopt a more parsimonious approach?

You are complaining of something being too hard to figure out, but when given the instructions to figure it out you reject it? (And parsimonious in no way has application here, as everything I've suggested is free)

It is good to see that you admit that there are things that we do not yet know.

It makes me think of the big bang.

The difference is that with science, engaging in theoretical thought has no penalty. With matters of the Spirit it doesn't immediately, but if we delude ourselves it can be hard to get back to even as much as we once knew. Does Gen 1:1 really speak of the big bang? To me it seems to, but does God intend for everyone to make that connection? I think this is something we cannot realistically answer.

While the NT does not shield us from mystery, it does reveal what is going on much more plainly, and is therefore a much more likely starting point. Christians should live in the Epistles. Seekers should become thoroughly familiar with at least one Gospel and one of the larger Epistles (Romans, or at least Ephesians or Colossians) before tackling even the easy stuff of the OT. And get as much as possible out of the NT before moving on to the rest of the OT. Had you taken these steps, all your questions would be answered by you.
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,190
325
✟122,771.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Cool. Thanks for that. :clap:

How do I know what prophesies to follow?

So, should we follow all 613 commandments in the OT?

Why should you follow prophesises? God set them in motion and we can't do much about them (and most of them are already done).

I follow the 10 commandments (the rest are for Jews only), and the only law we need to follow is to love yourself, since it is the law everything else is based on.
 
Upvote 0

workmx

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
524
2
52
✟703.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Why should you follow prophesises? God set them in motion and we can't do much about them (and most of them are already done).

I follow the 10 commandments (the rest are for Jews only), and the only law we need to follow is to love yourself, since it is the law everything else is based on.

Isn't the whole of christianity based on a prophesy: the jesus will return to earth story?

How did you decide which 10 of the 613 commandments to follow? And which 603 to ignore?

If we just have to follow one rule, why did you need the commandments?

I am curious.

BTW, your one rule sounds like this one: "Do what thy wilt is the whole of the law".

Interesting.
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,190
325
✟122,771.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Isn't the whole of christianity based on a prophesy: the jesus will return to earth story?
So, Jesus will return to earth, how do you follow that? There are a set of rules you need to follow, not prophesy.

How did you decide which 10 of the 613 commandments to follow? And which 603 to ignore?
I only follow the 10 commandments, all other rules are set for Jews. I was told by my church that even those (10 commandments) are for Jews only, but it is my personal take that those are good rules to follow :)
If we just have to follow one rule, why did you need the commandments?
The commandments are details, the Golden rule is the spirit of the laws. For example, you should not steal, but if you are stealing to save a life, do it, don't get strangled in the laws and forget the spirit of the law.

I am curious.

BTW, your one rule sounds like this one: "Do what thy wilt is the whole of the law".

Interesting.
See my comment above :)
 
Upvote 0

workmx

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
524
2
52
✟703.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
So, Jesus will return to earth, how do you follow that? There are a set of rules you need to follow, not prophesy.

How is this not a prophesy?

It is a statement about something that someone claims will happen in the future.

I am confused.

I only follow the 10 commandments, all other rules are set for Jews. I was told by my church that even those (10 commandments) are for Jews only, but it is my personal take that those are good rules to follow

I don't think you answered the question:

How did you decide which 10 of the 613 commandments to follow? And which 603 to ignore?
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,190
325
✟122,771.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
How is this not a prophesy?

It is a statement about something that someone claims will happen in the future.

I am confused.
It is a prophecy, there is nothing you can do about it and known of this prophecy doesn't do anything to our day to day lives, so I ignore prophecies. I only follow what's applicable to life.

I don't think you answered the question:
How did you decide which 10 of the 613 commandments to follow? And which 603 to ignore?

I did answer. The NT is the new convent that we Christians needs to follow, and the OT is the rules for the Jews to follow (the ceremonial laws).

So I follow the spirit of the laws, i.e. you should not steal, kill, idol worshiping, covet. The other rules for the Jews (milk and meat, mixing of fibers) are only ceremonial and has no meaning in the modern world.
 
Upvote 0

workmx

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
524
2
52
✟703.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
It is a prophecy, there is nothing you can do about it and known of this prophecy doesn't do anything to our day to day lives, so I ignore prophecies. I only follow what's applicable to life.

You seem to be saying that christianity should be ignored.

Is that right?

I did answer. The NT is the new convent that we Christians needs to follow, and the OT is the rules for the Jews to follow (the ceremonial laws).

So I follow the spirit of the laws, i.e. you should not steal, kill, idol worshiping, covet. The other rules for the Jews (milk and meat, mixing of fibers) are only ceremonial and has no meaning in the modern world.

Aren't all the commandments in the OT? So none of them would apply to christians.

On what criteria should I decide which of the 613 commandments "have no meaning"?
 
Upvote 0

workmx

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
524
2
52
✟703.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I did answer. The NT is the new convent that we Christians needs to follow, and the OT is the rules for the Jews to follow (the ceremonial laws).

I guess if you reject the OT, you reject the idea of Adam and Eve existing.

Thus reject the concept of orginal sin.

Thus reject the concept of sacrifical atonement,

Et cetera...
 
Upvote 0

workmx

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
524
2
52
✟703.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
So, Jesus will return to earth, how do you follow that? There are a set of rules you need to follow, not prophesy.


I only follow the 10 commandments, all other rules are set for Jews. I was told by my church that even those (10 commandments) are for Jews only, but it is my personal take that those are good rules to follow :)

The commandments are details, the Golden rule is the spirit of the laws. For example, you should not steal, but if you are stealing to save a life, do it, don't get strangled in the laws and forget the spirit of the law.


See my comment above :)

I am worried about your eternal soul DC.

For did Jesus himself not say:

John 5:18-20 said:
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I would be very careful about not fulfilling all 613 commandments set out in the OT.
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,190
325
✟122,771.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You seem to be saying that christianity should be ignored.
Is that right?
Nope, that is not what I said.
Aren't all the commandments in the OT? So none of them would apply to christians.

On what criteria should I decide which of the 613 commandments "have no meaning"?
If you look over the commandments, Christians follow most of the commandments. However some of the commandments are clearly for Jews only and does not apply to anyone else.
 
Upvote 0