Which bible?

[workmx]

God has preserved His Word. We need to enhance a Hebrews 11-type faith.

Or do you mean Enoch type faith?

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death

Faith that god will not allow the faithful to die?

Or to be faithful means that you should kill your children?

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son

Or faith that god helps people to commit war crimes?

By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

 

[theophilus777]

"War crimes" is an anachronism. Hasn't this been discussed already?

 

[workmx]

"War crimes" is an anachronism. Hasn't this been discussed already?

We may have, but Faroukfarouk has not, I think.

I was asking clarifying questions of him.

So, I await his answer(s).

Thanks.

 

[faroukfarouk]

We may have, but Faroukfarouk has not, I think.

I was asking clarifying questions of him.

So, I await his answer(s).

Thanks.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that comes to God, must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him'. (Hebrews 11.6)

Having said this, there is overwhelming textual evidence for a document such as the New Testament.

 

[workmx]

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that comes to God, must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him'. (Hebrews 11.6)

Thank you.

Having said this, there is overwhelming textual evidence for a document such as the New Testament.

Thanks. I do believe that the bible exists. In fact I own a copy.

As for the events described in it, I am not so sure.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The bible was scrolls but now the bible is a book, right?

A volume of different and distinct books. It is better to conceive of the Bible as a library, not as a book. The very word "Bible" comes from biblia, the Greek plural for "books" or "scrolls". The Bible is plural, not singular; books, not book.

So, how do we interpret the passage from Revelations?

We interpret the passage from the Revelation contextually, it refers to the text of the Revelation and nothing more.

There was no Bible to speak of when St. John wrote the Revelation.

Yes -the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek.

I know.

So, shouldn't Christians be encouraged to read it in Hebrew and Greek, in the same way that converts to Islam are encourgae to learn Arabic and read the Quran in that language (to better understand the revelations from god that it contains)?

Christians are encouraged, if they are able, to be educated and learn such things. But it is not required because we do not believe the Bible to be what Islam believes about the Qur'an. The Bible is not a dictated revelation from God, but a collection of inspired literature compiled and received over many centuries. And given that the chief point of the Biblical Canon was liturgical--to be read out loud during worship and heard by the Faithful--it has always been good, some would even argue necessary, for people to be able to hear the word in their own language.

Because the Bible isn't God's revelation, Jesus Christ is God's revelation. The Bible is about Jesus Christ, who is Himself the Eternal Word of God. And so we hear the Bible--the word about the Word--so that we may hear Christ who draws us to Him.

We interpret the Bible rightly by reading it in context, but spending energy to try and understand what the author meant when he wrote.

Which is why St. John isn't talking about the Bible in Revelation 22, because there was no Bible then, and even if there were, he is clearly talking about the text he is writing, the Revelation of St. John itself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[workmx]

A volume of different and distinct books. It is better to conceive of the Bible as a library, not as a book. The very word "Bible" comes from biblia, the Greek plural for "books" or "scrolls". The Bible is plural, not singular; books, not book.

We interpret the passage from the Revelation contextually, it refers to the text of the Revelation and nothing more.

Okay, so I am still wondering which bible contains the most accurate version of Revelations.

Sorry to insist but this is important.

Because if we take the proposition of heaven and hell seriously, this is a matter of life and death.

The Bible is not a dictated revelation from God, but a collection of inspired literature compiled and received over many centuries. And given that the chief point of the Biblical Canon was liturgical--to be read out loud during worship and heard by the Faithful--it has always been good, some would even argue necessary, for people to be able to hear the word in their own language.

Because the Bible isn't God's revelation, Jesus Christ is God's revelation. The Bible is about Jesus Christ, who is Himself the Eternal Word of God. And so we hear the Bible--the word about the Word--so that we may hear Christ who draws us to Him.

We interpret the Bible rightly by reading it in context, but spending energy to try and understand what the author meant when he wrote.

Which is why St. John isn't talking about the Bible in Revelation 22, because there was no Bible then, and even if there were, he is clearly talking about the text he is writing, the Revelation of St. John itself.

This confuses me.

1. The bible is not god's revelation.
2. But Jesus is god's revelation.
3. And the story of jesus is in the bible.

 

[dcalling]

Okay, so I am still wondering which bible contains the most accurate version of Revelations.

Sorry to insist but this is important.

Because if we take the proposition of heaven and hell seriously, this is a matter of life and death.

I think the more important things are the parts about what we should do, not the confusing prophecies. There can be various types of mistakes (the red sea scrolls shows many parts of OT are preserved very well, with small none important differences). I think that is why the original NT was compiled with conflicts in them instead of edited out, to try to preserve the word of God.

This confuses me.

1. The bible is not god's revelation.
2. But Jesus is god's revelation.
3. And the story of jesus is in the bible.

The OT can be seen as law of God, shows you what you can do and can't (not to kill/steal/covet).

The NT can been seen as the interpretation of the law, i.e. to obey the laws of God means you have to love your neibhgor as yourself.

 

[workmx]

I think the more important things are the parts about what we should do, not the confusing prophecies. There can be various types of mistakes (the red sea scrolls shows many parts of OT are preserved very well, with small none important differences). I think that is why the original NT was compiled with conflicts in them instead of edited out, to try to preserve the word of God.

The OT can be seen as law of God, shows you what you can do and can't (not to kill/steal/covet).

The NT can been seen as the interpretation of the law, i.e. to obey the laws of God means you have to love your neighbour as yourself.

Cool. Thanks for that.

How do I know what prophesies to follow?

So, should we follow all 613 commandments in the OT?

 

[Lukaris]

Cool. Thanks for that.

How do I know what prophesies to follow?

So, should we follow all 613 commandments in the OT?

Perhaps the main prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in Isaiah 53. Reading the Gospel of John 3:16-21 seems a good response to this prophecy. Confession to the Lord can be found in Romans 10: 9-13. As far as the 613 commandments, these are fulfilled by the Lord as He declares in Matthew 5: 17-19. The laws are summarized in the golden rule found in Matthew 7:12 (read Matthew 7:1-12 for overall focus). The law & prophets are fulfilled with the commands to love God & neighbor (see Matthew 22:36-40). The Lord lays out the higher principles to live by with alms giving & prayer in Matthew 6: 1-15 & St. Paul outlines the practical principles in Romans 13: 8-10.

 

[workmx]

Perhaps the main prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in Isaiah 53. Reading the Gospel of John 3:16-21 seems a good response to this prophecy. Confession to the Lord can be found in Romans 10: 9-13. As far as the 613 commandments, these are fulfilled by the Lord as He declares in Matthew 5: 17-19. The laws are summarized in the golden rule found in Matthew 7:12 (read Matthew 7:1-12 for overall focus). The law & prophets are fulfilled with the commands to love God & neighbor (see Matthew 22:36-40). The Lord lays out the higher principles to live by with alms giving & prayer in Matthew 6: 1-15 & St. Paul outlines the practical principles in Romans 13: 8-10.

Interesting.

I guess my real question is: how do I differentiate between real prophesies and "confusing prophesies"?

Matthew 5: 17-19 says:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How do I resolve the Golden Rule and the commands to love your neighbour with the following commandments?

• Destroy the seven Canaanite nations (Deut. 20:17) and not to let any of them remain alive (Deut. 20:16) and also
• Wipe out the descendants of Amalek (Deut. 25:19)

 

[theophilus777]

How do I resolve the Golden Rule and the commands to love your neighbour with the following commandments?

• Destroy the seven Canaanite nations (Deut. 20:17) and not to let any of them remain alive (Deut. 20:16) and also
• Wipe out the descendants of Amalek (Deut. 25:19)

How is this a real problem? Do you feel you have been visited by a Theophany telling you to do these things? If not, what is the problem?

 

[workmx]

How is this a real problem? Do you feel you have been visited by a Theophany telling you to do these things? If not, what is the problem?

It is confusing.

The bible (OT) tells us to murder, rape and enslave people.

Jesus endorses the OT and the commandments in it, yet also endorses the golden rule and to love your neighbour.

What should I believe?

Is god in favour of murder, rape and slavery or not?

 

[workmx]

How is this a real problem? Do you feel you have been visited by a Theophany telling you to do these things? If not, what is the problem?

More to the point: as a christian would you rape, murder or enslave if ordered by a theophany to do so?

 

[theophilus777]

More to the point: as a christian would you rape, murder or enslave if ordered by a theophany to do so?

Yes, that is more to the point!

My answer is "no." I know better. That would be a fallen angel, appearing as an angel of light. This is why its important that we be "grounded in the word," and know how to rightly divide it. Generally speaking, the OT commandments are not what we should focus on. If they confuse you, you really should focus on the NT. In it you will find anything of the OT that is still valid for us to follow re-stated, to remove any confusion.

As God reveals the NT to us and we grow in Faith, we may find a time when He calls us to understand the OT. This can be troubling, involve fasting, and generally shake us up. As a general rule, the history books that begin with Joshua and go through Esther, are not going to contain any instruction for us about anything we are supposed to DO. Nonetheless these books have great value to a maturing Faith when God decides to open our understanding. Of these, Ruth and Esther are rich in both how women can be godly and influential, as well as developing our Christology; i.e., better understanding His finished work on the Cross, and generally knowing Him more. The others have mostly dull history with hidden and veiled meaning, with only the occasional glimpse of God's Glory.

Contrasted to the NT which is mostly God's Glory revealed, with only the occasional drier bits of history. Follow these guidelines and enjoy God's Peace!

 

[workmx]

Yes, that is more to the point!

My answer is "no." I know better. That would be a fallen angel, appearing as an angel of light. This is why its important that we be "grounded in the word," and know how to rightly divide it. Generally speaking, the OT commandments are not what we should focus on. If they confuse you, you really should focus on the NT. In it you will find anything of the OT that is still valid for us to follow re-stated, to remove any confusion.

I am relieved to hear your answer.

It does leave me puzzled though.

We know that god is the source of objective morality, right?

So, why is the god of the OT so immoral?

As God reveals the NT to us and we grow in Faith, we may find a time when He calls us to understand the OT. This can be troubling, involve fasting, and generally shake us up. As a general rule, the history books that begin with Joshua and go through Esther, are not going to contain any instruction for us about anything we are supposed to DO. Nonetheless these books have great value to a maturing Faith when God decides to open our understanding. Of these, Ruth and Esther are rich in both how women can be godly and influential, as well as developing our Christology; i.e., better understanding His finished work on the Cross, and generally knowing Him more. The others have mostly dull history with hidden and veiled meaning, with only the occasional glimpse of God's Glory.

So, would you be in favour of removing the aforementioned parts of the OT from the bible?

Or should we just ignore them?

Contrasted to the NT which is mostly God's Glory revealed, with only the occasional drier bits of history. Follow these guidelines and enjoy God's Peace!

But that is the horn of the problem: Jesus endorses the OT and the OT's commandments.

What am I to make of that?

Should I refuse eat shellfish? Or milk and meat at the same time? Am I allowed to have a tattoo? Wear mixed fabrics?

 

[theophilus777]

I am relieved to hear your answer.

It does leave me puzzled though.

We know that god is the source of morality, right?

Is He?

So, why is the god of the OT so immoral?

Is He? Or do you see impossible moral predicaments, that make us THINK? In those gory stories are embedded some great things, but our Faith really has to grow before we can open ourselves to them.

So, would you be in favour of removing the aforementioned parts of the OT from the bible?

No, not at all; but we should have either wisdom or guidance as to when to try to tackle them. Meanwhile the wisdom books are a good intro to the OT. After we've been reading the NT through a few times and want some variety, Psalms and Proverbs go great! Then when we really want a challenge, sink your teeth into Job. Later, Malachi has a great sense of humor, and the Song of Songs is erotica with deep points.

Isaiah is everyone's favorite Prophet, while Jeremiah is a tear jerker. It can really be some time before God takes you into Joshua - Esther, if He ever does.

But that is the horn of the problem: Jesus endorsse the OT and the OT's commandments.

What am I to make of that?

Should I refuse eat shellfish? Or milk and meat at the same time? Am I allowed to have a tattoo? Wear mixed fabrics?

It doesn't hurt to understand the point of the obscure laws, but realize ALL of them speak of Christ. Since you do not see that now, please realize you are not getting the point, and therefore attending to these things hurts you rather than helps.

Instead, focus on what Jesus actually says about these things. Can you paraphrase that? What do you take away from that as of now?

 

[workmx]

Is He?

I thought so. I have had christians tell me so. And that without god people cannot be moral. YMMV

Is He? Or do you see impossible moral predicaments, that make us THINK? In those gory stories are embedded some great things, but our Faith really has to grow before we can open ourselves to them.

How do you grow faith? I thought it was a binary position (faith/no faith).

No, not at all; but we should have either wisdom or guidance as to when to try to tackle them. Meanwhile the wisdom books are a good intro to the OT. After we've been reading the NT through a few times and want some variety, Psalms and Proverbs go great! Then when we really want a challenge, sink your teeth into Job. Later, Malachi has a great sense of humor, and the Song of Songs is erotica with deep points.

I have read the bible twice. I have many, many questions about Job. And what god's behaviour in that book tells us about god's character.

It doesn't hurt to understand the point of the obscure laws, but realize ALL of them speak of Christ. Since you do not see that now, please realize you are not getting the point, and therefore attending to these things hurts you rather than helps.

Okay, even the ones that command us to kill, rape and enslave?

You may be right: it seems like too much cognitive work to make sense of the christian god.

Instead, focus on what Jesus actually says about these things. Can you paraphrase that? What do you take away from that as of now?

I have no idea. The mental life of jesus seems somewhat non-rational. At times, he promotes social justice and non-violence. Then next moment he physically attacks people and curses fig trees.

 

[theophilus777]

I thought so. I have had christians tell me so. And that without god people cannot be moral. YMMV

Ok, lets consider that position. An often repeated topic is atheists here protesting that notion, and many of them have good arguments. I do not think it is a fair statement to say that someone who doesn't believe in God must be immoral, or even amoral. In fact, I find it difficult to say the Bible concerns itself with morality so much. Righteousness, yes. Justice, even.

I find morality to be a human construction.

How do you grow faith? I thought it was a binary position (faith/no faith).

This is why it is important to prioritize what we read of Scripture, sincerely desiring the pure milk first. The Gospels make it plain that Faith begins as the tiniest of all seeds, and grows. It speaks of little Faith, wavering Faith, much Faith, great Faith, common Faith, right on up to the gift of Faith.

It tells us to be careful how we hear, to mix our hearing with Faith.

It also tells us Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. (These last 2 are in Hebrews)

I have read the bible twice. I have many, many questions about Job. And what god's behaviour in that book tells us about god's character.

Job is a deep book. I maintain it is the oldest book of the Bible, primarily written to refute the greatest wisdom of its day, yin and yang. We could discuss it at length, but I think its important that you first "balance your diet." Did you read through the Bible, beginning in Genesis and straight thru to Rev?

Okay, even the ones that command us to kill, rape and enslave?

Those aren't really laws, those are situation specific military commands. There are different approaches to understanding these unique situations, including that people just made them up; either at the time or after the fact. And those are Jews teaching these things.

I have no idea. The mental life of jesus seems somewhat non-rational.

But Scripture tells us "we have the mind of Christ," not that we are saved by cognitive work. What does this contrast tell you?

At times, he promotes social justice and non-violence. Then next moment he physically attacks people and cures fig trees.

You mean He cursed a fig tree. ONE. And chased thieves out of the Temple, ONCE. Not that these things are easy to understand, but it does help if we get the facts straight.

 

[workmx]

Ok, lets consider that position. An often repeated topic is atheists here protesting that notion, and many of them have good arguments. I do not think it is a fair statement to say that someone who doesn't believe in God must be immoral, or even amoral. In fact, I find it difficult to say the Bible concerns itself with morality so much. Righteousness, yes. Justice, even.

I find morality to be a human construction.

That is good to hear. I wonder what you make of the Euthyphro Dilemma.

This is why it is important to prioritize what we read of Scripture, sincerely desiring the pure milk first. The Gospels make it plain that Faith begins as the tiniest of all seeds, and grows. It speaks of little Faith, wavering Faith, much Faith, great Faith, common Faith, right on up to the gift of Faith.

It tells us to be careful how we hear, to mix our hearing with Faith.

It also tells us Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. (These last 2 are in Hebrews)

I wonder if that is cherry-picking.

Job is a deep book. I maintain it is the oldest book of the Bible, primarily written to refute the greatest wisdom of its day, yin and yang. We could discuss it at length, but I think its important that you first "balance your diet." Did you read through the Bible, beginning in Genesis and straight thru to Rev?

Yes. I read it like anyone reads any other book: start to finish.

Those aren't really laws, those are situation specific military commands. There are different approaches to understanding these unique situations, including that people just made them up; either at the time or after the fact. And those are Jews teaching these things.

Okay. How do we know which commands should be followed?

But Scripture tells us "we have the mind of Christ," not that we are saved by cognitive work. What does this contrast tell you?

I don't see a contrast.

You mean He cursed a fig tree. ONE. And chased thieves out of the Temple, ONCE. Not that these things are easy to understand, but it does help if we get the facts straight.

That was a typo. Fixed it.

I didn't say that jesus had a pattern of non-rational behaviour, just that the accounts we have about him make him seem non-rational.