Wherein I catch a professional YEC in a lie

[Bugeyedcreepy]

If evidence cant be proved, it isn't evidence and is not worth beans.

You don't prove evidence. Evidence is just a point of data that can be independently verified. Didn't you go to a school that teaches Science?

 

[DogmaHunter]

You don't prove evidence. Evidence is just a point of data that can be independently verified. Didn't you go to a school that teaches Science?

I hear homeschooling is popular in certain circles.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I hear homeschooling is popular in certain circles.

Ooh, oooohhhh.... -_- one of those....

 

[omega2xx]

Because we can test it and have tested it over and over again while getting consistent succesfull results.

To the point that I can be as certain as I can be that when I put normal water in the freezer, it will turn into ice after some time.

To the point that we can also know that if the water does NOT freeze, that there must be some special explanation for that, without having to discard the general rule that water will freeze when temperature goes below a certain level...
One such special explanation would be that there is salt in the water.

Just to illustrate, the "if's" in the post you replied to weren't "what-if's" that only exist in your imagination.

They were more like "under this and this existing condition - that will happen".
As in: "if condition A and condition B, then result X".

That sounds a lot like proving something to me.

 

[omega2xx]

I hear homeschooling is popular in certain circles.

I hear children who are home schooled do much better on the SAT test than those in our failed public school system and many times their teacher is not a trained teacher.

If we eliminated the DOE and the influence of teacher unions, America might return to #1 around the world in education instead of about #14.

BTW those circles you mention are mainly Christians.

 

[Kentonio]

I hear children who are home schooled do much better on the SAT test than those in our failed public school system and many times their teacher is not a trained teacher.

If we eliminated the DOE and the influence of teacher unions, America might return to #1 around the world in education instead of about #14.

Rather an unusual conclusion to draw, given that all the countries above the US have formal education systems and do not use home schooling extensively. Surely the logical conclusion should be that your education system needs to be greatly improved, rather than destroyed?

 

[DogmaHunter]

That sounds a lot like proving something to me.

It's not actually.
It's just supporting it with evidence to a ridiculous degree of success.
So ridiculous, that it becomes nothing short of perverse to try and argue against it.

But is it absolutely certain?
Because that is what "proof" results in. I say, no, it's not.
It's just extremely, extremely unlikely that it is wrong.

 

[omega2xx]

It's not actually.
It's just supporting it with evidence to a ridiculous degree of success.
So ridiculous, that it becomes nothing short of perverse to try and argue against it.

But is it absolutely certain?
Because that is what "proof" results in. I say, no, it's not.
It's just extremely, extremely unlikely that it is wrong.

To say science has not proved there is more than one blood type when we KNOW for certain there is, and it can't be falsified points to a false indoctrination of our failed public school system and the gullibility of anyone who accepts such an ignorant statement.

If you ever need a blood transfusion, tell them to give you whatever is handy, because they can't prove what type any they have and they can't prove what type you have.

 

[omega2xx]

Rather an unusual conclusion to draw, given that all the countries above the US have formal education systems and do not use home schooling extensively. Surely the logical conclusion should be that your education system needs to be greatly improved, rather than destroyed?

The countries above us probably do not have the government sticking their nosed where it does not belong and probably do not have teacher unions who are more interested in their salaries and benefits than they are in teaching.

Our public school system is being destroyed by government interference and teacher unions. It started going downhill when Jimmy Carter instituted the Dept of Education.

FYI home schooled kids far exceed the kids in public schools on all the standard test they have to take, and many universities prefer them to come to their school over those from public education.

 

[Kentonio]

The countries above us probably do not have the government sticking their nosed where it does not belong and probably do not have teacher unions who are more interested in their salaries and benefits than they are in teaching.

Our public school system is being destroyed by government interference and teacher unions. It started going downhill when Jimmy Carter instituted the Dept of Education.

FYI home schooled kids far exceed the kids in public schools on all the standard test they have to take, and many universities prefer them to come to their school over those from public education.

All the Europe based ones value teachers highly, pay them well and have national curriculums to ensure a consistent and high quality level of education. This idea that education is being ruined by government and teachers unions is a particularly American idea, that seems to be based more on an ideology that says 'government and unions are always wrong!' rather than any kind of realistic analysis of the situation. It's bizarre to an outsider seeing a western country that mistrusts and frequently rails against teachers and doctors, given that these are two of the most beloved professions in most European countries.

You talk about teachers only caring about pay and benefits btw. Given that teaching is an extremely challenging and exhausting job, why would you want teachers having to worry about how they will pay their bills this month, instead of focusing on how they can energize their students learning experience?

 

[Speedwell]

All the Europe based ones value teachers highly, pay them well and have national curriculums to ensure a consistent and high quality level of education. This idea that education is being ruined by government and teachers unions is a particularly American idea, that seems to be based more on an ideology that says 'government and unions are always wrong!' rather than any kind of realistic analysis of the situation. It's bizarre to an outsider seeing a western country that mistrusts and frequently rails against teachers and doctors, given that these are two of the most beloved professions in most European countries.

You talk about teachers only caring about pay and benefits btw. Given that teaching is an extremely challenging and exhausting job, why would you want teachers having to worry about how they will pay their bills this month, instead of focusing on how they can energize their students learning experience?

Speaking as a US educator, I must point that the attitude you speak of is not an "American" idea, but largely confined to what we call the "Religious Right" in this country, politically right wing Evangelical Protestants--substantially the same group we argue with in this forum about biblical creationism.

 

[DogmaHunter]

To say science has not proved there is more than one blood type when we KNOW for certain there is, and it can't be falsified points to a false indoctrination of our failed public school system and the gullibility of anyone who accepts such an ignorant statement.

That there are multiple blood types is an observation.
Not a model of explanation which requires evidence / proving.
When I say that science doesn't deal in proof, I'm talking about proving models of explanation: theories.

Observations are just that: observations, measurements, resulting in data or data sets. Facts, if you will.

If you ever need a blood transfusion, tell them to give you whatever is handy, because they can't prove what type any they have and they can't prove what type you have.

That would be very dumb of me.
It would also help if you would actually understand what we are talking about....

 

[PsychoSarah]

That sounds a lot like proving something to me.

Only because the common use of the word "proof" is to provide enough evidence such that one's personal standard of evidence is met.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Rather an unusual conclusion to draw, given that all the countries above the US have formal education systems and do not use home schooling extensively. Surely the logical conclusion should be that your education system needs to be greatly improved, rather than destroyed?

Well, sure, if you want to be reasonable about it.

But obviously the right answer is to destroy the education system entirely, and just have unqualified parents teach their children.

I mean, sure, I struggle at doing basic long division, on paper, but obviously I'm qualified to teach my children calculus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[omega2xx]

Only because the common use of the word "proof" is to provide enough evidence such that one's personal standard of evidence is met.

It is not my standard, That truth is so obvious even a blind person can see it.

 

[omega2xx]

All the Europe based ones value teachers highly, pay them well and have national curriculums to ensure a consistent and high quality level of education. This idea that education is being ruined by government and teachers unions is a particularly American idea, that seems to be based more on an ideology that says 'government and unions are always wrong!' rather than any kind of realistic analysis of the situation. It's bizarre to an outsider seeing a western country that mistrusts and frequently rails against teachers and doctors, given that these are two of the most beloved professions in most European countries.

WE rail when those responsible are incompetent and uncaring.

You talk about teachers only caring about pay and benefits btw. Given that teaching is an extremely challenging and exhausting job, why would you want teachers having to worry about how they will pay their bills this month, instead of focusing on how they can energize their students learning experience?

They are well educated and could get other jobs, If their pay is not suitable, they need to get out of teaching. In some liberal states it is almost impossible to fire a teacher no matter what they have done. They an be furloughed for years at full pay.

Why should teachers have a tenure system? No other profession does. That system makes it almost impossible to get rid of the incompetent ones.

Why do you think America has gone from #1 to #14 in education?

 

[Skreeper]

Why do you think America has gone from #1 to #14 in education?

Because fundamentalist right wing christians think reality is defined by what a dusty old book says?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why do you think America has gone from #1 to #14 in education?

1) A culture of anti-intellectualism.
2) Underfunding public education and low-paying wages for educators.
3) Prohibitively high cost tuition from tertiary education.

To name a few.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[omega2xx]

1) A culture of anti-intellectualism.

That may be part of it , but IMO, that has been promoted by our education system.

2) Underfunding public education and low-paying wages for educators.

Every year since the DOE was started their funding has increased. The teacher union say give us more money and the system will improve. Every year they get more money and every year the system gets worse. It is not a lack of money, it is a lack of Having a proper curriculum. It has been dumbed down so on one will fail, and have a low self image. It must be politically correct according to the liberal left.

3) Prohibitively high cost tuition from tertiary education.

To name a few.

-CryptoLutheran

The educators did that themselves. As soon as the government started guaranteeing student loans, tuitions started going up so they could pay the teachers more money. Do you know how much college professors make?

 

[omega2xx]

Because fundamentalist right wing christians think reality is defined by what a dusty old book says?

Don't blame Christians. What we think has been rejected by the current, left wing, PC crowd .They set the agenda, they are responsible for the results.

When schools use to teach the values in those dusty ole books, America was #1 in education and the students were more moral and less violent.

Those values are taught by home schoolers and their students are far better educated as the test results show. Most parents who home school the children are Christians. Many universities prefer them over those from the our public un-educating system. That should tell you something.