Wherein I catch a professional YEC in a lie

tas8831

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First of all this article lied about what exactly? What I'm seeing from your quotes is some vague details regarding a fossil with a curious pelvic, they seem to think was a precursor to hind limb development. Then you throw in a lot of incendiary rhetoric about how brainwashed creationists are, why not focus on the specifics?

I am flabbergasted that you cannot see the issue - I even bolded it for the less inspired. Perhaps if I put them side by side?




In fact, the evolutionary imagination accords this fish’s hind-parts so much power, they believe it was ready for “pelvic-propelled locomotion”1 across the terrestrial world and up the evolutionary tree.​


Tiktaalik reveals that features contributing to the trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion in the tetrapodomorph stem began emerging in finned taxa before being enhanced in more derived digited forms. Indeed, this trend has deep roots or parallel trajectories: diverse lungfish, both fossil
and extant, have pectoral and pelvic girdles that are subequal in size (17).​


Clearer now?
 
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tas8831

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Your answer confuses me. I understand you think the particular case mentioned in the OP was fraud, but my question was a general one, not specific to any particular case.

My answer was a specific one.


So, I understand you answered for the specific case: you think it was fraud. But I can't tell if you answered the general question I was asking: if a creationist's hypothesis fails a falsification test, does that mean they weren't doing science?

I can't help but notice that you did not address the actual topic of the thread.
But I'm not going to engage in this kind of stuff. There is no basis for trying someone in an "Internet court", especially when they are not present to defend themselves. It's not only juvenile, it's unethical.

But using this source:



Tiktaalik reveals that features contributing to the trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion in the tetrapodomorph stem began emerging in finned taxa before being enhanced in more derived digited forms. Indeed, this trend has deep roots or parallel trajectories: diverse lungfish, both fossil
and extant, have pectoral and pelvic girdles that are subequal in size (17).​


to draw this conclusion:


In fact, the evolutionary imagination accords this fish’s hind-parts so much power, they believe it was ready for “pelvic-propelled locomotion”1 across the terrestrial world and up the evolutionary tree.​

is...

Grown-up and mature?


Honest creation science in action?


Why so skittish?


Afraid of where the obvious conclusion will lead you?

IMO they have grounds to sue you for libel.

Libel according to google: a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.


Is it a false statement that Mitchell either lied or is incompetent? It is a QUESTION. One can draw conclusions from the evidence, and I draw my conclusions - my opinion.

I have stated that IMO that Tomkins knew what he was doing, and this is why he refuses to publish a correction or retraction. I ask a question and state an opinion - but you want to try to stifle it all by claiming that it might be libel.

Sad.


If you want to discuss the technical details of what they published, that's different. But if this is just a smear fest for unfounded accusations of fraud, I'm out.

"Unfounded"? So you choose to simply plug your ears and yammer NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH rather than LOOK AT THE ACTUAL WORDS PRESENTED.

Google 'jeff tomkins reddit'. Read the document I linked to. All sorts of discussion (and exposure) of the technical details.

This is just the usual attack on the messenger.

BYE Mr. Enabler.
 
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Resha Caner

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I can't help but notice that you did not address the actual topic of the thread.

Because I don't intent to join in the libel.

One can draw conclusions from the evidence, and I draw my conclusions - my opinion.

The courts have ruled that adding "it's my opinion" to a statement that, in all other ways passes the legal test for libel, is not a valid defense.

Afraid of where the obvious conclusion will lead you?

Which conclusion would that be?
 
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tas8831

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Because I don't intent to join in the libel.



The courts have ruled that adding "it's my opinion" to a statement that, in all other ways passes the legal test for libel, is not a valid defense.

LOL!

Thought you were done?

With your in-depth knowledge of libel law - which matches you in-depth knowledge of evolutionary biology, I am sure - surely you must understand that 1. there is a much higher bar for public figures and 2. the statements must be false, and that the writer must know it is false. I offer choices - lie, incompetence, other. There are only so many reasonable explanations.

I drew conclusions. Based on the evidence.

Which conclusion would that be?

That the problem of a lack honesty or competence runs deep in creationist circles.
 
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tas8831

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And what is your hope in leveling this charge?

Charge? That people will see the truth. It isn't exactly anything new, I am far, far from the only one that sees this.

This video, by the way:
has been up for 10 years and has over 150,000 views, and no charges of libel. I think we are good in drawing conclusions based on evidence.
 
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Resha Caner

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Charge? That people will see the truth. It isn;t exactly anything new, I am far, far from the only one that sees this.

This video, by the way, has been up for 10 years and has over 150,000 views, and no charges of libel. I think we are good in drawing conclusions based on evidence.

If everyone already sees the truth - if the charge has already been leveled by many others - if the video has received such widespread attention - why did you feel the need to copy&paste 1 more time? The title of the thread implies it was you who caught the alleged transgression.

So, I was asking what you hope to accomplish in this thread.
 
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tas8831

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If everyone already sees the truth - if the charge has already been leveled by many others - if the video has received such widespread attention - why did you feel the need to copy&paste 1 more time? The title of the thread implies it was you who caught the alleged transgression.

Wow... Ok...

Um, so you didn't watch the video, and you are having a hard time keeping closely related issues separate.

I am sure others have caught Mitchell, I am just the only one that brought it up on here (as far as I know). The video was referring to documenting/'charging' creationists with dishonesty, etc., in general.
Regarding Tomkins, others have called him out in other venues (I provided links elsewhere). No charges of libel there - which I see as attempts to stifle criticism. I have read about several creationists that threaten to sue people for exposing their errors.

So, I was asking what you hope to accomplish in this thread.
Good for you.

Bye.
 
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tas8831

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Medical doctor Elizabeth Mitchell writes, in an essay on the 'Answers in Genesis' site in a caption of a Tiktaalik artistic rendition (note the bolding and/or italics I added for emphasis in both quotes):


In fact, the evolutionary imagination accords this fish’s hind-parts so much power, they believe it was ready for “pelvic-propelled locomotion”1 across the terrestrial world and up the evolutionary tree.​

The 1 links to this article:

N. Shubin et al., “Pelvic girdle and fin of Tiktaalik roseae,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (13 January 2014)


wherein one finds this passage - the only passage in which one finds the word "propelled":


Tiktaalik reveals that features contributing to the trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion in the tetrapodomorph stem began emerging in finned taxa before being enhanced in more derived digited forms. Indeed, this trend has deep roots or parallel trajectories: diverse lungfish, both fossil
and extant, have pectoral and pelvic girdles that are subequal in size (17).​



Why do professional creationists lie like this? Is it because they have brainwashed their target audiences into bowing to their perceived authority so it doesn't matter?

Or are most of them just incompetent and don't know any better?

This is not, sadly, a rarity. YEC Dr.David Menton had written commentary on the pelvic bones of Tiktaalik, declaring them insufficient for land-based locomotion. Problem - at the time he wrote the article, the pelvic bones had not yet been discovered.

YEC Dr. Jeff Tomkins wrote an essay declaring that humans and chimps are really only about 70% similar, and thus could not have a shared ancestry. It was soon discovered that he had done 2 things - that he had used a version of BLASTn with known problems, and that he had constrained the program to return only sequence matches of prescribed lengths that were 100% matches - so if the program found a sequence in human that matched chimp in 9 out of 10 bases, it would come back as 0% identical, virtually guaranteeing that what he found would have a lower % identity than other analyses. When confronted with these problems, Tomkins doubled down and called his critics names (this played out on Reddit, not sure I want to link to it).

There are many other examples - but one has to wonder why, if they are so sure that they are correct, why do they engage in these acts of dishonesty?

And if they are acts of incompetence, why should their followers trust them?

Interesting how many creationists, instead of accepting the evidence and pondering the issue, try to switch topics or accuse me of nefarious doings.

It is in their blood, I suspect.
 
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mark kennedy

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I am flabbergasted that you cannot see the issue - I even bolded it for the less inspired. Perhaps if I put them side by side?

In fact, the evolutionary imagination accords this fish’s hind-parts so much power, they believe it was ready for “pelvic-propelled locomotion”1 across the terrestrial world and up the evolutionary tree.​

Tiktaalik reveals that features contributing to the trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion in the tetrapodomorph stem began emerging in finned taxa before being enhanced in more derived digited forms. Indeed, this trend has deep roots or parallel trajectories: diverse lungfish, both fossil
and extant, have pectoral and pelvic girdles that are subequal in size (17).​

Clearer now?
I don't think I was ever unclear, I stick with the discussions because there is always something interesting and kind of puzzling like this. I've ran into some pretty obviously wrong misstatement by Darwinian and Creationist alike, even in publications like Time and Scientific American. I don't consider it a lie just because I know it's simply not true. What more I hardly think this statement is false, it appears to be largely a matter of opinion.

I don't really have a problem with AIG even though I've never mistaken them as a primary source. However they would have a problem with me because I believe that age of the earth and the universe are irrelevant to the doctrine of creation. I don't happen to believe that highly emotive rhetoric is constructive, you see something you are convinced is an error just point it out. The motto of the Creation/Evolution forum for a long time was the truth will prevail, I've always liked that.

That said those amphibian fossils are truly fascinating, in a discussion like this you should allow yourself a chance to enjoy the subject matter.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I don't think I was ever unclear, I stick with the discussions because there is always something interesting and kind of puzzling like this. I've ran into some pretty obviously wrong misstatement by Darwinian and Creationist alike, even in publications like Time and Scientific American.
-_- Time magazine isn't exactly a scientific journal. I am curious if you have any links to Scientific American articles you have found to have errors. Not a list provided elsewhere that found errors through the peer review process, errors you found independently.

I don't really have a problem with AIG even though I've never mistaken them as a primary source.
They are definitely one of the primary sources of bad YEC arguments that get flung around here.

However they would have a problem with me because I believe that age of the earth and the universe are irrelevant to the doctrine of creation. I don't happen to believe that highly emotive rhetoric is constructive, you see something you are convinced is an error just point it out. The motto of the Creation/Evolution forum for a long time was the truth will prevail, I've always liked that.
I thought the motto of this forum was "if you get frustrated, pretend you never started the conversation". 'Tis a forum of unfinished business.

That said those amphibian fossils are truly fascinating, in a discussion like this you should allow yourself a chance to enjoy the subject matter.
Oh, I love to look at the crazy stuff that gets dug up. Some pictures to admire incoming:
http://listverse.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/sharovipteryx_bw.jpg
https://www.newdinosaurs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/630_diplocaulus_r._hein_pickle.jpg
http://www.dinosaur-world.com/feathered_dinosaurs/species/therizinosaurus_cheloniformis.gif
 
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tas8831

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I don't think I was ever unclear,

And yet you wrote:

"First of all this article lied about what exactly? "


I stick with the discussions because there is always something interesting and kind of puzzling like this. I've ran into some pretty obviously wrong misstatement by Darwinian and Creationist alike, even in publications like Time and Scientific American. I don't consider it a lie just because I know it's simply not true. What more I hardly think this statement is false, it appears to be largely a matter of opinion.


Let's look again...


YEC Mitchell:

"In fact, the evolutionary imagination accords this fish’s hind-parts so much power, they believe it was ready for “pelvic-propelled locomotion”1 across the terrestrial world and up the evolutionary tree.


Shubin, in the paper YEC Mitchell cites:

"Tiktaalik reveals that features contributing to the trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion in the tetrapodomorph stem began emerging in finned taxa before being enhanced in more derived digited forms. Indeed, this trend has deep roots or parallel trajectories: diverse lungfish, both fossil and extant, have pectoral and pelvic girdles that are subequal in size (17)."



Mitchell: 'evolutionists say Tiktaalik was ready for pelvic-propelled locomotion'

Shubin: 'Tiktaalik had characteristics showing a trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion'

Mithcell: "ready for"

Shubin: "contributing to trend toward"

Hmmm....


You say "opinion".

I say, at the most charitable, "incompetent to adequately interpret scientific papers."
 
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mark kennedy

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And yet you wrote:

"First of all this article lied about what exactly? "

Let's look again...


YEC Mitchell:

"In fact, the evolutionary imagination accords this fish’s hind-parts so much power, they believe it was ready for “pelvic-propelled locomotion”1 across the terrestrial world and up the evolutionary tree.


Shubin, in the paper YEC Mitchell cites:

"Tiktaalik reveals that features contributing to the trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion in the tetrapodomorph stem began emerging in finned taxa before being enhanced in more derived digited forms. Indeed, this trend has deep roots or parallel trajectories: diverse lungfish, both fossil and extant, have pectoral and pelvic girdles that are subequal in size (17)."



Mitchell: 'evolutionists say Tiktaalik was ready for pelvic-propelled locomotion'

Shubin: 'Tiktaalik had characteristics showing a trend toward pelvic-propelled locomotion'

Mithcell: "ready for"

Shubin: "contributing to trend toward"

Hmmm....


You say "opinion".

I say, at the most charitable, "incompetent to adequately interpret scientific papers."

Ok, this is from the Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome:
  • Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23%
  • The indel differences between the genomes thus total ∼90 Mb. This difference corresponds to ∼3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions
So 1.23% plus 3% comes to 4.23% which means the two genomes are 96% the same. So given those unambiguous numbers that require only the most basic math, did Talk Origins lie about the divergence here?

Insertion and deletion (indel) events account for another approximately 3 percent difference between chimp and human sequences, but each indel typically involves multiple nucleotides. The number of genetic changes from indels is a fraction of the number of single-nucleotide substitutions (roughly 5 million compared with roughly 35 million). So describing humans and chimpanzees as 98 to 99 percent identical is entirely appropriate (Chimpanzee Sequencing 2005).
The divergence is measured in base pairs, not events, the statement is obviously wrong, did they lie?

Chimps are our nearest evolutionary cousins, roughly 98% to 99% identical to humans at the genetic level. (What Makes Us Different. Not very much, when you look at our DNA. But those few tiny changes made all the difference in the world. Time Oct. 2006)
Time was aware of the Chimpanzee Genome paper, they would mention it a couple of paragraphs later. The number they are clearly wrong, is this a lie?

This one is from the announcement by Nature Magazine Web Focus, specifically of the Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome. Again the number they use is clearly and obviously wrong:

What makes us human? We share more than 98% of our DNA and almost all of our genes with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. (The Chimpanzee Genome. Nature.com)​

So did they lie? This isn't some obscure speculation about fossil anatomy. This is a complete Chimpanzee genome compared to a complete Human genome. The comparison cites 5 previous research papers that had already confirmed the level of divergence in no uncertain terms.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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-_- Time magazine isn't exactly a scientific journal. I am curious if you have any links to Scientific American articles you have found to have errors. Not a list provided elsewhere that found errors through the peer review process, errors you found independently.


They are definitely one of the primary sources of bad YEC arguments that get flung around here.


I thought the motto of this forum was "if you get frustrated, pretend you never started the conversation". 'Tis a forum of unfinished business.


Oh, I love to look at the crazy stuff that gets dug up. Some pictures to admire incoming:
http://listverse.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/sharovipteryx_bw.jpg
https://www.newdinosaurs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/630_diplocaulus_r._hein_pickle.jpg
http://www.dinosaur-world.com/feathered_dinosaurs/species/therizinosaurus_cheloniformis.gif
I dont have to look all that hard to find the direct contradictions of fact like the ones in the above post. Its fairly interesting that Darwinians are happy to moralize about AIG in a frenzy but go silent when its Talk Origins that can't get basic math straight.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I dont have to look all that hard to find the direct contradictions of fact like the ones in the above post. Its fairly interesting that Darwinians are happy to moralize about AIG in a frenzy but go silent when its Talk Origins that can't get basic math straight.
Do give a specific example of scientific papers contradicting each other. It would be especially damning if they contradict each other and have the same publishing year.

An individual's private interpretation having differences from the scientific paper being referenced, especially if it is minor choices in words, is a very nitpicky thing to be concerned about.
 
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mark kennedy

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Do give a specific example of scientific papers contradicting each other. It would be especially damning if they contradict each other and have the same publishing year.

An individual's private interpretation having differences from the scientific paper being referenced, especially if it is minor choices in words, is a very nitpicky thing to be concerned about.
Did I say scientific papers? That nitpiky number represent 90 million base pairs they have no explanation for. The point was that these statements are obviously wrong. Its as simple as 4 plus 1.23 and as many times as I've pointed this out not one evolutionist has honestly admitted to it. Some of these indels are over a million base pairs long which is why evolutionist uniformly ignore and deny them.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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OK. But are those measures always available beforehand, or might a new hypothesis require proposing new measures? We seem to be in step with this little exercise so far, so I'll note a fun little historical tidbit. Newton faced a very difficult problem with his Principia. Calculus didn't exist at the time (of course, since he developed it). So, even though so much of modern physics depends on calculus, he knew he couldn't use calculus for his proofs. Therefore, he had to prove everything twice - once using calculus but also once using older methods combining geometry and qualitative arguments.
Hmmm, you might have to explain - how are you proposing this 'intelligence' be measured? How would you measure this intelligence without formulating an appropriate test and collecting the data as such?
 
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