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Wherein I catch a profession YEC in a lie 2.0

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DogmaHunter

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Hey hey hunter

Fair enough.

Lets try another one.

Say you were wearing shorts, shirt and shoes. You are at the beach with friends and walking near the water.

Your friend decides to push you in the water and succeeds. You fall into the water.

You are in the water.

Could you explain how it would not be absolutely certain that you will be wet?

Cheers

Ps there are no obstructions in your way. There are no boats or anything resembling a platform near you.

It is open water

For all practical intents and purposes, I'ld off course assume that I'll become wet and would even call it a fact. I'ld be as certain as can be. If anyone would claim to be able to jump in a pool and not get wet, I'ld call them crazy.

After all, ALL data we have would support the notion that I'll get wet.

But what about the data we don't have?
Is there a scenario where I could jump in a pool and not get wet?
Not that I know off.

And there you have it: not that I know off.

I can't know what I don't know. Is there even any data "out there" that would show that it is possible to jump in a pool and not get wet? There doesn't seem to be, but not finding or encountering such data is not proof that it doesn't exist.

All data at my disposal supports that I'll get wet and no data showing otherwise is known.
So I'ld call it a fact or a certainty, sure.

Not an absolute certainty though, because that would require me to be able to prove that there are no circumstances under which it could turn out differently. And I can't do that.
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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I'ld be as certain as can be. If anyone would claim to be able to jump in a pool and not get wet, I'ld call them crazy.

Cheers for the reply you marvel :)

So its more to do with a thing that 'may' happen or be the case, rather than a thing that is 'likely' to be the case. You do not know all the alternatives or have all the data.

However, you would call someone crazy for believing they were able to jump in water and not get wet - under the previously mentioned conditions.

This statement seems to conflict. Why would you assume that person is insane?

And there you have it: not that I know off.

Lets get more creative. Lets look at hot water. Say you were at a residence. There is a boiling pot of water and a toddler. The toddler is standing on a chair and about to reach into the boiling water.

Would you stop the toddler from reaching in? Is there any circumstance you would assume the toddler would not get injured and let the situation play out? if no/yes why?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Cheers for the reply you marvel :)

So its more to do with a thing that 'may' happen or be the case, rather than a thing that is 'likely' to be the case. You do not know all the alternatives or have all the data.

However, you would call someone crazy for believing they were able to jump in water and not get wet - under the previously mentioned conditions.

This statement seems to conflict. Why would you assume that person is insane?

It's not in conflict.
There is exactly 0 zero data to suggest any outcome other then getting wet.
There is an inumerable amount of data to suggest the opposite.

When all the evidence leads to X and no evidence leads to Y, it would be irrational to conclude Y instead of X. Or crazy.

Even if Y turns out to be correct anyway. See, having a rational belief doesn't necessarily mean that it is an accurate belief. Just like having irrational beliefs doesn't mean, by definition, that the belief is wrong.

How rational a belief is, has to do with how it is motivated. If all the data at your disposal supports your conclusion and no data is present to think otherwise, then it is rational to accept it.

There was a time when the brightest people on earth believe the sun orbitted the earth. If your only information is "it comes up there, moves accross the sky and then sets there..." then concluding a geocentrism-like model is a rational position. In fact, if that truelly is your ONLY information, it would be even irrational to believe heliocentrism....

So yes, I feel fine stating that I'ld call a person crazy for believing that jumping in a pool will not result in getting wet. While at the same time recognizing that I can't prove otherwise.

Lets get more creative. Lets look at hot water. Say you were at a residence. There is a boiling pot of water and a toddler. The toddler is standing on a chair and about to reach into the boiling water.

Would you stop the toddler from reaching in? Is there any circumstance you would assume the toddler would not get injured and let the situation play out? if no/yes why?

I think I alreade adequatly explained it in the previous example.
Obviously I would stop the toddler, for the reasons mentioned above: everything I know about heat, boiling water and skin informs me that such an action will not end well.

So, again, for all practical intents and purposes, I'll call it a certainty that it won't end well.

Not an absolute certainty, because that would require proof. And I can't prove what will or will not happen. I can only say what is the extremely likely outcome, given the information I have. It's so extremely likely, that we might just as well call it a fact.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend for you.
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend for you.

Hey dh. :)

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. You are a diamond :)

Dh - "Not an absolute certainty, because that would require proof."

Curious. Is the above statement an absolute certainty?

Does this mean there is one absolute certainty, that there is no absolute certainties?

Cheers
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Hey dh. :)

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. You are a diamond :)

Dh - "Not an absolute certainty, because that would require proof."

Curious. Is the above statement an absolute certainty?

Does this mean there is one absolute certainty, that there is no absolute certainties?

Cheers
Only 2 things in life are certain - taxes and death ;)
 
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DogmaHunter

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Hey dh. :)

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. You are a diamond :)

Dh - "Not an absolute certainty, because that would require proof."

Curious. Is the above statement an absolute certainty?

Does this mean there is one absolute certainty, that there is no absolute certainties?

Cheers

It's just what "absolute certainty" means. It's not a claim about reality.
That is not the same kind of statement as "if you jump in the water, you'll get wet".
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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It's just what "absolute certainty" means. It's not a claim about reality.
That is not the same kind of statement as "if you jump in the water, you'll get wet".

Hey hey

Does this mean there is one absolute certainty, that there is no absolute certainties?

Yes or no my friend :)
 
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DogmaHunter

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Hey hey

Does this mean there is one absolute certainty, that there is no absolute certainties?

Yes or no my friend :)

I already answered.
That "absolute certainty" is achieved by proof is a matter of logic, not a matter of explanations of phenomena of reality.

When one says that science doesn't deal in absolute certainties, one is talking about science.
About unravelling the mysteries of reality. In science, one does that by building explanatory models. Aka, theories.

Matters of logic are not the same as explanations of the phenomena of reality.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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the iconoclast

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Hey @_-iconoclast-_ , just hoping you haven't forgotten to reply to my post Wherein I catch a profession YEC in a lie 2.0 ?

Hey hey :) :) :)

Been I while. Please excuse my absence, it has been a busy last couple of months.

I was attempting to reply to this post months ago.

Wow what a long post congrats again. I was willing to reply to that, however I will admit the post is way too long for my attention span and time.

Your model has to allow for a Christian God who willingly allows Muslims, Jews and Atheists alike (not to mention every other religion and culture that will never know about Christianity) to be born, live and die never knowing of the Christian God let alone being saved.

This highlighted question seems to be a reoccurrng point you would like to make. How bout we start again here?

Cheers and thank you for your patience friend. :)
 
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the iconoclast

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That "absolute certainty" is achieved by proof is a matter of logic, not a matter of explanations of phenomena of reality.

Hello friend :)

So an absolute certainty can be proved by reasoning with logic.

Would you consider God to be a phenomenon?

Cheers good to see you again. :)
 
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DogmaHunter

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Astrophile

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That is nice but what does this have to do with anything? God gave it to man to name the animals. So you can call them whatever you want to call them.

Adam Names the Animals
…19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. Genesis 2:20

Why was there no helper suitable for Adam?

I've always been puzzled by this. Presumably when God 'formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky' he made both males and females of every species, so why didn't He realise that the man needed a woman to be a suitable companion for him?
 
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the iconoclast

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Thank you for the reply friend :)

What do you mean by this statement below

Dogmahunter - "That "absolute certainty" is achieved by proof is a matter of logic,"

God is an empty unfalsifiable claim with no merrit.

Is that statement an absolute certainity?

Cheers you diamond
 
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Jimmy D

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Thank you for the reply friend :)

What do you mean by this statement below

Dogmahunter - "That "absolute certainty" is achieved by proof is a matter of logic,"



Is that statement an absolute certainity?

Cheers you diamond

Hi Iconolcast, how are you?

I'm liking the new Eagle.

(I'm responding here because the other thread was closed)
 
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