Where were the Christians In Germany during WWII?

[Archivist]

While true in terms of passport papers, I'm not sure how relevant that is for this discussion and the point I'm trying to make. The Dutch share much in terms of ethnic and cultural origins with the Germans.

Technically, Hitler wasn't German but Austrian ... and I've heard that argument used to justify why Nazism is not a German phenomena. Just as there was a Miep Gies, there was also a Jan Hartman. Just as there was a Churchill, there was a Chamberlain. Just as there was an FDR, there was a Heinz Spanknobel.

Probably most Americans haven't experienced connections to the old country, but it is an oddly fascinating thing to learn about how German-Americans dealt with having relatives who lived in Germany. Maybe the easiest example to study is the Busch family (of Busch beer fame). Borders are an artificial human construction, as is - to a significant extent - national identity. Further, the modern version of nationalism is a very late invention. It took me a long time to break out of the American nationalist paradigm and see what people were like before such things came along.

My point is entirely relevant. Yes, the Dutch share ethnic origins with the Germans. However, that point is not relevant. It was the Germans who attacked the Netherlands without provocation in 1940, and who bombed Dutch cities and killed Dutch civilians. The Dutch government never surrendered and continued the fight from abroad. Except for a handful of Dutch quislings, the Germans were never anything other than enemies to the Dutch during the war.

Ironically the Netherlands had remained neutral during the First World War, and had supplied significant aid to Germany following that conflict. Didn't the Germans pay them back in a nice way by taking their land and murdering their people?

 

[Resha Caner]

The heartland of Nazism was in Bavaria, which of course was part of Germany. Prussia actually produced alot of resistors to Nazism, having a more free-thinking, individualistic type ethos. It's unfortunate that Prussia was blamed after the war for all the evils of Germany and dissolved wholesale, when it was such an important place of culture and learning during the Enlightenment.

Some don't realize how long "German" was a general description of a loose collection of peoples and how late it became a nation. It was much the same with Spain, Italy, etc. Just as the FFs in the U.S., there was a conscious effort (from people like Bismarck) to invent a German nation. It created an interesting dynamic with the Austrian empire. Franz Josef was somewhat perplexed by it all, as he considered himself German, and wondered why the provinces to the north were resisting him. He was after all (in his mind) a benevolent ruler. Once I managed to get into his head space, some of his reasoning made sense - kinda scary. The same thing happened to me with the Spanish caudillos ... huh, there's a certain logic to this ... wait, did I just say that? That's when I realized why & how people become Nazis.

 

[Resha Caner]

My point is entirely relevant. Yes, the Dutch share ethnic origins with the Germans. However, that point is not relevant. It was the Germans who attacked the Netherlands without provocation in 1940, and who bombed Dutch cities and killed Dutch civilians.

I'm not justifying what the German army did. But you are missing my point. Had the Germans won, you would now be emphatically arguing with me that Germany simply recovered what was rightfully theirs - that they kicked out an oppressive group of people who styled themselves as the Dutch government and oppressed the true Germans who lived there.

There was nothing intrinsically superior in being Dutch. They were just people. Many of them bravely resisted the tyranny of their times and deserve the praise they receive for those actions. But they weren't better because they were Dutch.

 

[Archivist]

I'm not justifying what the German army did. But you are missing my point. Had the Germans won, you would now be emphatically arguing with me that Germany simply recovered what was rightfully theirs - that they kicked out an oppressive group of people who styled themselves as the Dutch government and oppressed the true Germans who lived there.

Actually no, I wouldn't be making that argument. Germany didn't recover what was rightfully theirs. The Netherlands was an independent nation.

There was nothing intrinsically superior in being Dutch. They were just people. Many of them bravely resisted the tyranny of their times and deserve the praise they receive for those actions. But they weren't better because they were Dutch.

I never said that the Dutch were "intrinsically superior" or "better because they were Dutch." Don't put false words in my mouth. The OP is asking where the German Christians were during World War II. You named two people as having stood up to the Nazis--Corrie ten Boom and Miep Gies. My only point is that those two individuals don't represent German Christians because they were not Germans. They were Dutch citizens working to oppose the German invaders.

 

[Bobber]

There was a wave of repentance after the war when people realized the mistake they made in supporting Hitler.

I'd never want to give an overall judgement of a people. Each one there at the time probably all had different thoughts on what was going on some sincerely didn't know of extreme atrocities occurring but others who did know inwardly feeling things were wrong but afraid to raise their voice. I think it's easy for us all to throw stones at ones who did know but keep in mind your life and your family isn't on the line by being vocal about it now. A friend of mines father was in the German army, fighting in Russian and he swore to his son that he did not know any of the things that took place. I have no reason to doubt that. Some knew of course those in the military where those things were taking place, but large numbers didn't.

 

[Resha Caner]

Actually no, I wouldn't be making that argument.

Good.

I never said that the Dutch were "intrinsically superior" or "better because they were Dutch." Don't put false words in my mouth.

I'm not. I gave you my interpretation of what you said. You corrected me, and that's fine. No reason to get bent out of shape about it.

I still think your implication that those who cooperated were a tiny few is incorrect - "a handful of Dutch quislings" to make a direct quote.

The OP is asking where the German Christians were during World War II. You named two people as having stood up to the Nazis--Corrie ten Boom and Miep Gies. My point is that those two individuals don't represent German Christians because they were not Germans. They were Dutch citizens working to oppose the German invaders.

And my point is that there is no such thing as a "German Christian" whereby the adjective "German" explains how Christians in Germany are different from Christians in the Netherlands. In fact, the word German is a foreign label. The people of the German nation refer to themselves as "Deutsch" (which has strong lingual connections to the English word "Dutch"), and the people of the Dutch nation refer to themselves as "Nederlands".

There is neither Greek nor Jew, but all are one in Christ Jesus. There is no German Christian or Dutch Christian. There are Christians who live in Germany and the Netherlands. There were Christians living in WWII Germany. Some bravely resisted. Some did not. [edit] I accept your correction on technical grounds, but was trying to avoid it clouding my point. I think I failed in that regard.

To me the OP implies an idea that the Holocaust wouldn't have happened had their been "true" Christians living in WWII Germany. If you agree with me that that is a false notion, then I'm not quite sure what we're arguing about.

 

[FireDragon76]

You've correctly identified the great evil that liberal religion presents when it rejects the moral and historic teachings of religious orthodoxy, but all believers in our day would do well to realize that this desire of liberal religion to compromise with the world exists regardless of what the sentiment of the prevailing age is...whether it is the desire of liberal religion of that day to make peace with antisemitism, or the desire of liberal religion today in America to make peace with international instead of national socialism and the LGBTPQRSTUVWXYZ agenda. By its nature, liberal religion always betrays the Savior to embrace the spirit of the age.

You're using liberal in too broad a way. I'm specifically referring to the German theology of the late 19th century associated with the Biblical criticism of Julius Wellhausen and the theology of Friedrich Schleiermacher.

Christian LGBT advocates come from a variety of theological perspectives, not all of which are theological liberals (in the sense I would understand that term), though of course some are.

 

[Resha Caner]

You're using liberal in too broad a way. I'm specifically referring to the German theology of the late 19th century associated with the Biblical criticism of Julius Wellhausen and the theology of Friedrich Schleiermacher.

Christian LGBT advocates come from a variety of theological perspectives, not all of which are classically liberal, though of course some are.

You'll probably need to provide some background on classic liberalism. The modern use of the word by many evangelicals as an epithet is a misunderstanding of what it means to be a liberal - not that I am one - don't you dare lump me into that evil group (that's a joke, but in truth I'm not a liberal in the modern or classical sense).

 

[Newtheran]

You're using liberal in too broad a way. I'm specifically referring to the German theology of the late 19th century associated with the Biblical criticism of Julius Wellhausen and the theology of Schleiermacher.

Christian LGBT advocates come from a variety of theological perspectives, not all of which are classically liberal, though of course some are.

I know what you were referring to, but you missed the broader point.

Regardless of what their denominational affiliations were in the past, "christian" apologists for the LGBTQP agenda all are advocates for liberal religion.

 

[Resha Caner]

I know what you were referring to, but you missed the broader point.

My apologies. My post implied something that is not correct.

 

[FireDragon76]

You'll probably need to provide some background on classic liberalism. The modern use of the word by many evangelicals as an epithet is a misunderstanding of what it means to be a liberal - not that I am one - don't do you dare lump me into that evil group (that's a joke, but in truth I'm not a liberal in the modern or classical sense).

Yeah, it's mostly an epithet used to describe modern and postmodern theology in general, which means its painting with a very broad brush.

 

[FireDragon76]

I know what you were referring to, but you missed the broader point.

Regardless of what their denominational affiliations were in the past, "christian" apologists for the LGBTQP agenda all are advocates for liberal religion.

In the sense of not being bound irreformably to traditional readings of the Scriptures? That's the essence of Protestantism. That's not "Liberalism" per se. Theological liberalism of the 19th century owed a great deal to philosophical assumptions that are not necessarily shared by every LGBT-affirming Christian.

Actually, the negative impacts of liberal theology I am speaking of is more like the sort of religion you'll find in the American heartland or south, where Trump is the next Cyrus out to save America from perceived cultural degeneracy. There was a tendency in both American Fundamentalism and in German Liberal theology to see the nation as a kind of chosen people who were inherently superior, but always threatened by moral crises and pollutions of one kind or another (whether its Demon Rum, Catholics, or Mack the Knife).

 

[Newtheran]

In the sense of not being bound irreformably to traditional readings of the Scriptures? That's the essence of Protestantism.

That's the essence of orthodoxy, not necessarily protestantism.

Theological liberalism of the 19th century owed a great deal to philosophical assumptions that are not necessarily shared by every LGBT-affirming Christian.

True, but the opposition to Christian orthodoxy is. Also, I'd recommend that you stop omitting queer, postgender, and pedosexual individuals from your LGBT abbreviation as it's quite discriminatory of you.

Actually, the liberal theology I am speaking of is more like the sort of religion you'll find in the American heartland or south, where Trump is the next Cyrus out to save America from perceived cultural degeneracy.

There's nothing about that which could be called "liberal" in any sense of the word.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God is not powerful enough to turn the hearts of evil men?

He doesn’t make choices based on whether he has sufficient power or not.

But now anyway, ever hear of Le Chambon, or the Rosenstrasse protests, or Denmark's resistance at the time?

No, but I heard if the Munich student movement against Hitler.

 

[Resha Caner]

He doesn’t make choices based on whether he has sufficient power or not.

Good point.

 

[Halbhh]

Where were the Christians In Germany during WWII?
Thursday, Sep 27th 2018

Chilling confessions of PoWs captured by the British have laid bare the brutality and excesses of ‘ordinary’ German soldiers in the Second World War.

A book of transcripts to be published in Germany next week reveals how the honour of its old army was lost amid the frenzy to be ‘perfect, pitiless Nazis’.

In the interrogation transcripts, the German soldiers speak of the ‘fun’ and ‘pure enjoyment’ of massacring innocent civilians and enemy troops.

If you dare read it all here> The 'perfect, pitiless, Nazi': Soldiers' interviews reveal how German troops driven by 'bloodlust' killed for fun | Daily Mail Online

One who has some significant messages for us all even now

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Born 4 February 1906
Died 9 April 1945 (aged 39)
Flossenbürg concentration camp, Nazi Germany
Education Staatsexamen (Tübingen), Doctor of Theology (Berlin), Privatdozent (Berlin)
Congregations served
Zion's Church congregation, Berlin
German-speaking congregations of St. Paul's and Sydenham, London
Offices held
Associate lecturer at Frederick William University of Berlin (1931–1936)
Student pastor at Technical College, Berlin (1931–1933)
Lecturer of Confessing Church candidates of pastorate in Finkenwalde(1935–1937)
Title Ordained pastor

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (German: [ˈdiːtʁɪç ˈboːnhœfɐ]; 4 February 1906 – 9 April 1945) was a German pastor, theologian, anti-Nazi dissident, and key founding member of the Confessing Church. His writings on Christianity's role in the secular world have become widely influential, and his book The Cost of Discipleship has been described as a modern classic.[1]

Apart from his theological writings, Bonhoeffer was known for his staunch resistance to Nazi dictatorship, including vocal opposition to Hitler's euthanasia program and genocidal persecution of the Jews.[2] He was arrested in April 1943 by the Gestapo and imprisoned at Tegel prison for one and a half years. Later, he was transferred to a Nazi concentration camp. After being accused of being associated with the July 20 plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler, he was quickly tried, along with other accused plotters, including former members of the Abwehr (the German Military Intelligence Office), and then executed by hanging on 9 April 1945 as the Nazi regime was collapsing.

Bonhoeffer completed his Staatsexamen, the equivalent of both a bachelor's degree and a master's degree, at the Protestant Faculty of Theology of the University of Tübingen. He went on to complete his Doctor of Theology degree (Dr. theol.) from Berlin University in 1927, graduating summa cum laude.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer - Wikipedia

 

[The Gryphon]

Physician, heal thyself...

Bonhoeffer on Stupidity. . .Yet Again

When Bonhoeffer visited the US, he tended to only worship in African-American churches, where he felt that black people understood the Gospel truly. I believe little has changed since Bonhoeffer's day in this respect. While Nazi Germany's Christianity was disfigured and twisted, I don't believe America's is all that much different.

So I think this makes it understandable where the Christians in Germany were. Most of them were very conflicted, submerged in a religion that had little to do with mercy and grace, and everything to do with authoritarianism and nationalism.

Few people now today know how prominent The Nazi Party was in the USA before WWII. We read how the Japanese Americans had their property all but confiscated and were put in camps. There was one near where I lived while attending College in New Mexico. Did you ever hear of members of the American Nazi Party ever being put in Camps like the Japanese Americans were? No, that's because they were not. Interesting is it not?

Americans for Hitler - the Bund - America in WWII magazine

https://gizmodo.com/how-american-nazis-used-summer-camps-to-indoctrinate-th-1743267747​

 

[Halbhh]

Where were the Christians In Germany during WWII?
Thursday, Sep 27th 2018

Chilling confessions of PoWs captured by the British have laid bare the brutality and excesses of ‘ordinary’ German soldiers in the Second World War.

A book of transcripts to be published in Germany next week reveals how the honour of its old army was lost amid the frenzy to be ‘perfect, pitiless Nazis’.

In the interrogation transcripts, the German soldiers speak of the ‘fun’ and ‘pure enjoyment’ of massacring innocent civilians and enemy troops.

If you dare read it all here> The 'perfect, pitiless, Nazi': Soldiers' interviews reveal how German troops driven by 'bloodlust' killed for fun | Daily Mail Online

Bonhoeffer was able to stay out of jail from a long time....because he was such a respected German.

Even in jail, the guards were befriended and treated him very well, bringing him things.

He was associated with others involved in one plot to try to remove Hitler though, and that was how they got him finally.


Under cover of the Abwehr, Bonhoeffer served as a courier for the German resistance movement to reveal its existence and intentions to the Western Allies in hope of garnering their support, and, through his ecumenical contacts abroad, to secure possible peace terms with the Allies for a post-Hitler government. His visits to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Switzerland were camouflaged as legitimate intelligence activities for the Abwehr. In May 1942, he met Anglican Bishop George Bell of Chichester, a member of the House of Lords and an ally of the Confessing Church, contacted by Bonhoeffer's exiled brother-in-law Leibholz; through him feelers were sent to British foreign minister Anthony Eden. However, the British government ignored these, as it had all other approaches from the German resistance.[35] Dohnányi and Bonhoeffer were also involved in Abwehr operations to help German Jews escape to Switzerland. During this time Bonhoeffer worked on Ethics and wrote letters to keep up the spirits of his former students. He intended Ethics as his magnum opus, but it remained unfinished when he was arrested. On 5 April 1943, Bonhoeffer and Dohnányi were arrested and imprisoned.

Imprisonment[edit]
On 13 January 1943, Bonhoeffer had become engaged to Maria von Wedemeyer, the granddaughter of his close friend and Finkenwalde seminary supporter, Ruth von Kleist Retzow. Ruth had campaigned for this marriage for several years, although up until late October 1942, Bonhoeffer remained a reluctant suitor despite Ruth being part of his innermost circle.[36] A large age gap loomed between Bonhoeffer and Maria: he was 36 to her 18. The two also spent almost no time alone together prior to the engagement and did not see each other between becoming engaged and Bonhoeffer's 5 April arrest. Once he was in prison, however, Maria's status as fiancée became invaluable, as it meant she could visit Bonhoeffer and correspond with him. While their relationship was troubled,[37] she was a source of food and smuggled messages.[38] Bonhoeffer made Eberhard Bethge his heir, but Maria, in allowing her correspondence with Bonhoeffer to be published after her death, provided an invaluable addition to the scholarship.

For a year and a half, Bonhoeffer was imprisoned at Tegel military prison awaiting trial. There he continued his work in religious outreach among his fellow prisoners and guards. Sympathetic guards helped smuggle his letters out of prison to Eberhard Bethge and others, and these uncensored letters were posthumously published in Letters and Papers from Prison. One of those guards, a corporal named Knobloch, even offered to help him escape from the prison and "disappear" with him, and plans were made for that end. But Bonhoeffer declined it, fearing Nazi retribution against his family, especially his brother Klaus and brother-in-law Hans von Dohnányi, who were also imprisoned.[39]

After the failure of the 20 July Plot on Hitler's life in 1944 and the discovery in September 1944 of secret Abwehr documents relating to the conspiracy, Bonhoeffer was accused of association with the conspirators. He was transferred from the military prison Tegel in Berlin, where he had been held for 18 months, to the detention cellar of the house prison of the Reich Security Head Office, the Gestapo's high-security prison. In February 1945, he was secretly moved to Buchenwald concentration camp, and finally to Flossenbürg concentration camp.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer - Wikipedia

 

[The Gryphon]

Bonhoeffer was able to stay out of jail from a long time....because he was such a respected German.

Even in jail, the guards were befriended and treated him very well, bringing him things.

He was associated with others involved in one plot to try to remove Hitler though, and that was how they got him finally.


Under cover of the Abwehr, Bonhoeffer served as a courier for the German resistance movement to reveal its existence and intentions to the Western Allies in hope of garnering their support, and, through his ecumenical contacts abroad, to secure possible peace terms with the Allies for a post-Hitler government. His visits to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Switzerland were camouflaged as legitimate intelligence activities for the Abwehr. In May 1942, he met Anglican Bishop George Bell of Chichester, a member of the House of Lords and an ally of the Confessing Church, contacted by Bonhoeffer's exiled brother-in-law Leibholz; through him feelers were sent to British foreign minister Anthony Eden. However, the British government ignored these, as it had all other approaches from the German resistance.[35] Dohnányi and Bonhoeffer were also involved in Abwehr operations to help German Jews escape to Switzerland. During this time Bonhoeffer worked on Ethics and wrote letters to keep up the spirits of his former students. He intended Ethics as his magnum opus, but it remained unfinished when he was arrested. On 5 April 1943, Bonhoeffer and Dohnányi were arrested and imprisoned.

Imprisonment[edit]
On 13 January 1943, Bonhoeffer had become engaged to Maria von Wedemeyer, the granddaughter of his close friend and Finkenwalde seminary supporter, Ruth von Kleist Retzow. Ruth had campaigned for this marriage for several years, although up until late October 1942, Bonhoeffer remained a reluctant suitor despite Ruth being part of his innermost circle.[36] A large age gap loomed between Bonhoeffer and Maria: he was 36 to her 18. The two also spent almost no time alone together prior to the engagement and did not see each other between becoming engaged and Bonhoeffer's 5 April arrest. Once he was in prison, however, Maria's status as fiancée became invaluable, as it meant she could visit Bonhoeffer and correspond with him. While their relationship was troubled,[37] she was a source of food and smuggled messages.[38] Bonhoeffer made Eberhard Bethge his heir, but Maria, in allowing her correspondence with Bonhoeffer to be published after her death, provided an invaluable addition to the scholarship.

For a year and a half, Bonhoeffer was imprisoned at Tegel military prison awaiting trial. There he continued his work in religious outreach among his fellow prisoners and guards. Sympathetic guards helped smuggle his letters out of prison to Eberhard Bethge and others, and these uncensored letters were posthumously published in Letters and Papers from Prison. One of those guards, a corporal named Knobloch, even offered to help him escape from the prison and "disappear" with him, and plans were made for that end. But Bonhoeffer declined it, fearing Nazi retribution against his family, especially his brother Klaus and brother-in-law Hans von Dohnányi, who were also imprisoned.[39]

After the failure of the 20 July Plot on Hitler's life in 1944 and the discovery in September 1944 of secret Abwehr documents relating to the conspiracy, Bonhoeffer was accused of association with the conspirators. He was transferred from the military prison Tegel in Berlin, where he had been held for 18 months, to the detention cellar of the house prison of the Reich Security Head Office, the Gestapo's high-security prison. In February 1945, he was secretly moved to Buchenwald concentration camp, and finally to Flossenbürg concentration camp.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer - Wikipedia

Just imagine if the Christians all across Germany had taken as principled a stand as Bonhoeffer did but they put themselves above Christ. Unlike some of the Apostles and First Century Christians who were stoned to death and fed to lions standing up for their faith. They joined the Germany Army helped round up Jews, Roma, and others and helped put them on trains to death camps and fought against the Allies trying to stop the Carnage! Saying I was just obeying orders.

I'm not going to respond to this thread anymore as it is just to personal to me.

 

[timewerx]

Sorry guy I am near the poverty level now myself. One paycheck away from homelessness. I'm ready to go home to be with the Lord. If I did not have good insurance I would be there now. Living of Social Security as all the savings are gone to the Doctors, Hospitals, and drug companies just to stay alive. I'm VERY tired and I don't like what I see for the future in this nation. I'm turning 69 and my wife is 72.

Sorry to hear. My post is not really just for you but for everyone.

Of course, much is given, much is required. Since you are poor brother, you are the one who requires help.

Many Christians would rather lose their time, money, and mind in worldy things, than the truth, otherwise, they would be using their resources in helping brother and sisters who needs help like you instead using it for worldly things.