Where was the Sabbath Abolished?

[trophy33]

Would you call a general refusal to worship God a sin?

I mean, I think that is the heart of the commandment, that man has an obligation to worship God. If we can agree on that but disagree on the particular timing, frequency, etc., I can live with that I think.

What do you mean by a general refusal to worship God?

 

[IcyChain]

Yes, the law of Moses has ended, but the eternal moral principles still continue also in the New Covenant - its still wrong to steal or murder and similar.

However, the specifics of the law of Moses, like "hate your enemy" or "remember the Sabbath day" are discontinued.

Generally agree. Would you say that there is an eternal moral principle behind the third commandment? If so, what do you think that principle is? Or would you say that the third commandment was merely ceremonial in nature, with no moral principle behind it?

 

[trophy33]

Generally agree. Would you say that there is an eternal moral principle behind the third commandment? If so, what do you think that principle is? Or would you say that the third commandment was merely ceremonial in nature, with no moral principle behind it?

The ceremonial part was the literal day of a week and the number 7. And all those detailed instructions what is allowed and what is not.

The eternal moral principle was entering the rest from our work which is fulfilled in Christ.

 

[IcyChain]

What do you mean by a general refusal to worship God?

Good question. I had not thought it out exactly when I wrote the post I think.

How about this? A complete refusal to worship God in a formal or semi-formal manner, either by oneself or with other Christians present, assuming that the person has no physical or mental impediments from doing so.

Here, I do not include things like "righteous living" (not sinning, doing good works, etc.)

I mean an intentional direction of one's mind and body towards the Lord to give him express praise. This could be in the form of song, prayers of thanksgiving, proclamation of Scripture. Things of that nature, although it could also come in various other forms.

 

[trophy33]

Good question. I had not thought it out exactly when I wrote the post I think.

How about this? A complete refusal to worship God in a formal or semi-formal manner, either by oneself or with other Christians present, assuming that the person has no physical or mental impediments from doing so.

Here, I do not include things like "righteous living" (not sinning, doing good works, etc.)

I mean an intentional direction of one's mind and body towards the Lord to give him express praise. This could be in the form of song, prayers of thanksgiving, proclamation of Scripture. Things of that nature, although it could also come in various other forms.

I am not sure if this exists. People may become more passive/colder/lazy in their faith, but I do not know of anybody who is a Christian, but actively refuse to, for example, thank God.

There may be people who refuse to do it aloud, because they are for example introverted, but thats because of their social phobia, not because of some wrong intention.

 

[IcyChain]

I am not sure if this exists. People may become more passive/colder/lazy in their faith, but I do not know of anybody who is a Christian, but actively refuse to, for example, thank God.

There may be people who refuse to do it aloud, because they are for example introverted, but thats because of their social phobia, not because of some wrong intention.

Well there's a wide range of beliefs among Christians. Some think that once you say the sinner's prayer you are automatically saved for all time, even if you renounce the faith and become a ranting atheist two weeks later . . .

But even at a lesser level myself, there have been times when I have been angry at God and refused to offer him the worship that he deserves for periods of time (I have skipped church, prayer, etc., for months at a time, for example). I would say that was sinful, because at a basic level I think we have an obligation to worship God. So I asked for forgiveness for it. I don't think something like this is uncommon for Christians at various stages of our lives.

Is it your view that a Christian is incapable of refusing God the worship that he deserves?

 

[Gary K]

How does that imply my feelings about my fellow man?

If you discuss scripture just for sport are you acting like Jesus did while here on earth? I, personally. can't imagine Jesus thinking it was sport to discuss scripture.

 

[IcyChain]

The ceremonial part was the literal day of a week and the number 7. And all those detailed instructions what is allowed and what is not.

The eternal moral principle was entering the rest from our work which is fulfilled in Christ.

Thanks. That is a reasonable view on it. I would say that the ceremonial aspect has to to do with the timing, but that the moral principle includes an obligation to worship God formally. I would not say that the moral principle only includes us resting from our work, although that is included.

I would say that worship is directed towards God and that God is the object of worship, but that ultimately this worship is for the benefit of man (as with all of the other commandments). That is, man needs to worship God for his own benefit, God does not need man's worship.

 

[Soyeong]

So just who was it that made this wholly arbitrary decision?

What wholly arbitrary decision?

 

[Soyeong]

It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mt 5:31

You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.
Mt 5:38

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven
Mt 5:45

"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law...
So the law was our guardian until Christ came...
Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3:23-25

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way
of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
R 7:6

"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another"
R 7:4

Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory...
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
2 Cor 3:7,11

Those are good examples of verses that shouldn’t be interpreted as speaking against obeying God.

 

[trophy33]

Those are good examples of verses that shouldn’t be interpreted as speaking against obeying God.

Jesus is God.

 

[trophy33]

Is it your view that a Christian is incapable of refusing God the worship that he deserves?

I think that a true Christian will return to it in some way or form, later.

 

[Soyeong]

Well I would not say that the Sabbath was abolished. I would say that the Church changed the day of obligatory worship to Saturday just before Sunset, when our Lord was resurrected. The ceremonial aspect (the timing) was changed but the essential obligation to worship one day a week is retained.

God did not command an obligatory day of worship, but to keep the 7th day holy. If someone wants to follow their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday, then they are free to do so, but that should be in addition to obeying God’s commands to honor our parents, to keep the 7th holy, and to refrain from committing adultery, idolatry, theft, murder, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for God’s other commands. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so there is no need whatsoever to set aside any of God’s commands in order to honor the resurrection. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so trying to honor the resurrection by disobeying God’s command to keep the 7th day holy is like a husband trying to honor his wife by committing adultery.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus is God.

Indeed, so he should not be interpreted as being in disagreement with what God has instructed.

 

[trophy33]

Indeed, so he should not be interpreted as being in disagreement with what God has instructed.

This sentence does not make any sense. He is the authority on what we are instructed. And with this authority, He changed the instructions that were given to Israel for a specific time period.

 

[IcyChain]

I think that a true Christian will return to it in some way or form, later.

I think that is reasonable. When the true Christian returns to it, should he repent for having refused the Lord proper worship for the time that he was away?

 

[trophy33]

I think that is reasonable. When the true Christian returns to it, should he repent for having refused the Lord proper worship for the time that he was away?

If he is feeling it as a specific burden on his conscience, sure. However, I do not think there is a general rule for this.

 

[IcyChain]

This sentence does not make any sense. He is the authority on what we are instructed. And with this authority, He changed the instructions that were given to Israel for a specific time period.

I would agree that our Lord changed the instructions. I think we might disagree on the particular details about what the new instructions entail, but that's fine I think. I would say that the law of Christ essentially entails following the promptings of the Holy Spirit within us, but I would also say that part of that reduces to following particular rules set forth by the Church for our edification, such as "not having an abortion", "not watching pornography" and things like that. . .

 

[trophy33]

I would agree that our Lord changed the instructions. I think we might disagree on the particular details about what the new instructions entail, but that's fine I think.

We would agree on elemental and most clear things like adultery, murder, witchcraft, hatred, occultism, violence, idolatry etc.

The more subtle things depend on our individual context, environment, situation.

 

[IcyChain]

If he is feeling it as a specific burden on his conscience, sure. However, I do not think there is a general rule for this.

Then your view is that there is nothing intrinsically sinful with intentionally refusing to offer God worship for extended periods of time (assuming no mental or physical impediment for doing so)?