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Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...
- Thread starter simonthezealot
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Your seeing something that is not there. Mary is refered to the New Eve because through Eve sin entered into the world and through Mary salvation entered into world. Jesus was born of Mary.
This is called typology.
Also no one has stated that she has ascended and become like the most high. Your beating up your straw man.
Peace
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MamaZ
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and no one else has claimed it. But that does not make her any more Holy or any more blessed than any one that has bowed their knee to Christ and now are born of His Spirit. For we are all called blessed because it is all about Christ and not Mary.
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when we say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, or the Holy Mother in Heaven, we do not mean that she is married to the Father.What we mean is that she is the "queen Mother" - like in the Old Testament... she is the Queen because she is the Mother of Jesus, who is God, not because she is "married" to God the Father.
hope that makes sense...
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We do not worship Mary, we honour and respect her as the Mother of Jesus... she is called the Co-Redemptrix (not Co Redeemer!!) because she is involved in Christ's work of redemption, not because she actually redeems (anyway, this title has not been officially approved by the Church)
I dont think she was simply a vessel, God didn't force her to bear His Son, it was through her obedience that this happened.. she is a human being, not a vessel.
When we honour Christ's Mother, we honour Him.
God bless
monica
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GBTWC
God bless the Working class
the new eve interesting seeing as How Christ is the final Adam sounds like your making Her equal to Christ unless I guess you could say eve was Adam's helpmate but then that sounds like the Holy Spirit
the whole straw man thing can only be used so many times it sounds to me like the Idea of Mary being anything but a sinful human being Chosen to be used by our Lord is a straw man Idea.
God has used me as a vessel to bring people to salvation why dont you call me the co-redeemer or crown a statue of me ? that would be ridiculous Im a fallen human saved By the Grace of God just as Mary praise God for her faithfulness but but dont bow b-4 Her Image or Crown HER or Pray to Her that Honor is reserved for God alone
not really it sounds like a dance called the back-step
What we mean is that she is the "queen Mother" - like in the Old Testament... she is the Queen because she is the Mother of Jesus, who is God, not because she is "married" to God the Father.
hope that makes sense...
Im involved with Christ's work of redemption wheres my statue? I tell you what when you read the prayer in the OP you cant help to get the idea she's being worshiped especially when you couple it with icons of her with pierced hands the pope bowing in front of her statue the title queen of heaven and crowning her statue just to name a few so if you guys aren't worshiping her you're doing a good job of fooling everybody into thinking you are just becouse you say you're not doesnt mean its not true actions speak louder than words
We as believers are all vessels why do you guys keep suggesting anyone thinks God forced Her Im not saying that. did God force Jonah no but He would have accomplished His will with or without Her if that was His choice He is God you know
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy cmind.When we honour Christ's Mother, we honour Him.
38 This is the first and great acommandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.
so of course when you honour Mary if she was still on earth with us it would honor God but she by the grace of God is in heaven casting Her crown at the feet of The KING OF KINGS so how do you honour God according to Matthew 22: 37-39 by building a statue of a deceased Human crowning it kissing it and bowing b-4 it ?
it doesnt take a genius to see why it sounds looks and taste smells as though she's being worshiped and if your not well that's between you and God but you sure are misleading allot of people some of which truly are worshiping her so with all the warnings about idolatry false idols graven images in the scriptures dont you think it would be more honoring to Christ not to bow before statues and say oh im not worshiping it
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Yes you are a co-redeemer but you were not chosen by the Father to bear His Son. You did not carry everything that is God with in yourself. You have no such honor.
Sin was brough into the world through man and woman. Adam and Eve. Likewise Salvation entered into the world through man and woman.
Your reading way more into my post that's there about Mary being the new eve.
Giving honor where honor is due, bowing and praying does not mean worship.
Peace
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And don't you realize that He did not have to be born of a woman and take on humanity for us and die a horrible death for us?
Don't you realize that's where the miracle of God's grace is?
Peace
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And the Scriptures also say to give honor where honor is due.37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy cmind.
38 This is the first and great acommandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.
so of course when you honour Mary if she was still on earth with us it would honor God but she by the grace of God is in heaven casting Her crown at the feet of The KING OF KINGS so how do you honour God according to Matthew 22: 37-39 by building a statue of a deceased Human crowning it kissing it and bowing b-4 it ?
it doesnt take a genius to see why it sounds looks and taste smells as though she's being worshiped and if your not well that's between you and God but you sure are misleading allot of people some of which truly are worshiping her so with all the warnings about idolatry false idols graven images in the scriptures dont you think it would be more honoring to Christ not to bow before statues and say oh im not worshiping it
Peace
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katherine2001
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If Jesus had come from the womb of a kangaroo, we would not be saved, because Jesus would not be human like us. He would have an animal nature and a divine nature. Animals would be saved, but not humans. Jesus received His humanity from Mary.
As Lionroar said, bowing is not worship. When a performer bows or curtseys to the audience and blows a kiss at them, is the performer worshiping his audience? If you bow to royalty or to the primary authority of your country, are you worshiping that person? "Pray" simply means to ask, and we ask the saints to intercede with God for us, and we pray to God ourselves as well. It's just like asking others to pray for you. They are just members of our prayer chain.
As Lionroar said, bowing is not worship. When a performer bows or curtseys to the audience and blows a kiss at them, is the performer worshiping his audience? If you bow to royalty or to the primary authority of your country, are you worshiping that person? "Pray" simply means to ask, and we ask the saints to intercede with God for us, and we pray to God ourselves as well. It's just like asking others to pray for you. They are just members of our prayer chain.
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MamaZ
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According to the scriptures we are not to even bow down to such things or people. When one bows down it is a sign of humbling yourself and we are only to humble ourselves to God.
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Sphinx777
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In Christian liturgy, bowing is a sign of respect or deference. In many traditions, individuals will bow when passing in front of the altar, or at certain points in the service (for example, when the name of Jesus Christ is spoken). It may take the form of a simple bow of the head, or a slight incline of the upper body. A profound bow is a deep bow from the waist, and is often done as a substitution for genuflection.
Poyasny ("little bow") and zemnoy poklon ("great bow") are different kinds of bows used in an Eastern Orthodox worship service.
The different kinds of bows one could encounter at an Eastern Orthodox service are shown in the picture at the bottom. Only types 2, 5 and 6 have their own independent meaning and rules of usage; the other types are either "lightened" or "weighted" vesions of these three "basic" versions. Strict rules exist as to which type of a bow should be used at any particular time. These rules are very complicated, and are not always carried out in most parishes. Old Believers are generally much more punctillious about bows in comparison with the official Orthodoxy.
1. The first type is a 'head-only bow'. This type of bow does not have its own assigned usage, but can be used only instead of a 'belt-low bow' (2) in some situations, such as when one cannot make a lower bow since there are too many people in the church, or due to back problems. People also should keep standing in this position during reading of Gospels and some other important periods of the service.
2. 'Belt-low bow' (поясной поклон can also be called an 'ordinary bow', since it's the most widespread type of bow. Most bows during the Eastern Orthodox service are of this kind. However sometimes, for example, during the Lent, the bows became lower and 'earth-low bows' (5) should be used instead.
3. 'Belt-low bow with touching earth by a hand'. This type of a bow could be treated in two ways: sometimes it's only the 'very thoroughly done type 2 bow'. Sometimes, on the other hand, it's a 'lightened' version of an 'earth-low bow' (5). For example, when Popovtsy Old Believers ask their priests for a blessing, they should, theoretically, perform a 'earth-low bow'. But since one could ask a priest for a blessing during an occasional meeting on a street, where it is rather uncomfortable to make a full 'earth-low bow', usually one only touches the earth with one's right hand (usually the back side of a hand).
4. Metanoia (метание , 'metanie) is also a 'lightened' version of a 'earth-low bow' that is used in Old Believers services sometimes.
5. Zemnoy poklon (земной поклон, full earth-low bow) is a special type of bow which is especially important for Old Believers.
6. Prostration is used only during the service of imposition of holy orders.
It's also important to note that traditionally, the Eastern Orthodox service has no kneeling in the Western sense of standing on one's knees, but nowadays many churches of mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy have begun to use pews and kneelers, and thus have begin kneeling in some parts of the service. This is a custom borrowed from Roman Catholics. Traditional Orthodox and Old Believers reject kneeling and keep themselves in the zemnoy poklon (5) position during these parts of the service.
Orthodox tradition specifies that the faithful are not to prostrate themselves in prayer from Pascha (Easter) until Pentecost, or on any Sundays throughout the year. There is some variation in interpretation of this tradition. Old Believers tend to limit the prohibition only to those portions of worship which are specifically "prayer"; whereas mainstream Orthodox do not prostrate themselves at all on these days (with certain exceptions, such as when the Exaltation of the Cross falls on a Sunday).
Poyasny ("little bow") and zemnoy poklon ("great bow") are different kinds of bows used in an Eastern Orthodox worship service.
The different kinds of bows one could encounter at an Eastern Orthodox service are shown in the picture at the bottom. Only types 2, 5 and 6 have their own independent meaning and rules of usage; the other types are either "lightened" or "weighted" vesions of these three "basic" versions. Strict rules exist as to which type of a bow should be used at any particular time. These rules are very complicated, and are not always carried out in most parishes. Old Believers are generally much more punctillious about bows in comparison with the official Orthodoxy.
1. The first type is a 'head-only bow'. This type of bow does not have its own assigned usage, but can be used only instead of a 'belt-low bow' (2) in some situations, such as when one cannot make a lower bow since there are too many people in the church, or due to back problems. People also should keep standing in this position during reading of Gospels and some other important periods of the service.
2. 'Belt-low bow' (поясной поклон
can also be called an 'ordinary bow', since it's the most widespread type of bow. Most bows during the Eastern Orthodox service are of this kind. However sometimes, for example, during the Lent, the bows became lower and 'earth-low bows' (5) should be used instead.3. 'Belt-low bow with touching earth by a hand'. This type of a bow could be treated in two ways: sometimes it's only the 'very thoroughly done type 2 bow'. Sometimes, on the other hand, it's a 'lightened' version of an 'earth-low bow' (5). For example, when Popovtsy Old Believers ask their priests for a blessing, they should, theoretically, perform a 'earth-low bow'. But since one could ask a priest for a blessing during an occasional meeting on a street, where it is rather uncomfortable to make a full 'earth-low bow', usually one only touches the earth with one's right hand (usually the back side of a hand).
4. Metanoia (метание , 'metanie) is also a 'lightened' version of a 'earth-low bow' that is used in Old Believers services sometimes.
5. Zemnoy poklon (земной поклон, full earth-low bow) is a special type of bow which is especially important for Old Believers.
6. Prostration is used only during the service of imposition of holy orders.
It's also important to note that traditionally, the Eastern Orthodox service has no kneeling in the Western sense of standing on one's knees, but nowadays many churches of mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy have begun to use pews and kneelers, and thus have begin kneeling in some parts of the service. This is a custom borrowed from Roman Catholics. Traditional Orthodox and Old Believers reject kneeling and keep themselves in the zemnoy poklon (5) position during these parts of the service.
Orthodox tradition specifies that the faithful are not to prostrate themselves in prayer from Pascha (Easter) until Pentecost, or on any Sundays throughout the year. There is some variation in interpretation of this tradition. Old Believers tend to limit the prohibition only to those portions of worship which are specifically "prayer"; whereas mainstream Orthodox do not prostrate themselves at all on these days (with certain exceptions, such as when the Exaltation of the Cross falls on a Sunday).
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winsome
English, not British
Genesis 23:7
"Abraham rose up, and bowed down to the people of the land, to wit the children of Heth."
1Kings 1:16
Bathsheba bowed and did obeisance to the king, and the king said, "What do you desire?"
1 Kings 1:23[FONT="]
And they told the king, "Here is Nathan the prophet." And when he came in before the king, he bowed before the king, with his face to the ground.
1 Kings 2:19
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.
I can understand Bathsheba bowing to the king because she was a woman and wouldn't know any better. But Nathan was a prophet - worshiping the king! Wow!
[/FONT]
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winsome
English, not British
In Christian liturgy, bowing is a sign of respect or deference. In many traditions, individuals will bow when passing in front of the altar, or at certain points in the service (for example, when the name of Jesus Christ is spoken). It may take the form of a simple bow of the head, or a slight incline of the upper body. A profound bow is a deep bow from the waist, and is often done as a substitution for genuflection.
Poyasny ("little bow") and zemnoy poklon ("great bow") are different kinds of bows used in an Eastern Orthodox worship service.
The different kinds of bows one could encounter at an Eastern Orthodox service are shown in the picture at the bottom. Only types 2, 5 and 6 have their own independent meaning and rules of usage; the other types are either "lightened" or "weighted" vesions of these three "basic" versions. Strict rules exist as to which type of a bow should be used at any particular time. These rules are very complicated, and are not always carried out in most parishes. Old Believers are generally much more punctillious about bows in comparison with the official Orthodoxy.
1. The first type is a 'head-only bow'. This type of bow does not have its own assigned usage, but can be used only instead of a 'belt-low bow' (2) in some situations, such as when one cannot make a lower bow since there are too many people in the church, or due to back problems. People also should keep standing in this position during reading of Gospels and some other important periods of the service.
2. 'Belt-low bow' (поясной поклон
3. 'Belt-low bow with touching earth by a hand'. This type of a bow could be treated in two ways: sometimes it's only the 'very thoroughly done type 2 bow'. Sometimes, on the other hand, it's a 'lightened' version of an 'earth-low bow' (5). For example, when Popovtsy Old Believers ask their priests for a blessing, they should, theoretically, perform a 'earth-low bow'. But since one could ask a priest for a blessing during an occasional meeting on a street, where it is rather uncomfortable to make a full 'earth-low bow', usually one only touches the earth with one's right hand (usually the back side of a hand).
4. Metanoia (метание , 'metanie) is also a 'lightened' version of a 'earth-low bow' that is used in Old Believers services sometimes.
5. Zemnoy poklon (земной поклон, full earth-low bow) is a special type of bow which is especially important for Old Believers.
6. Prostration is used only during the service of imposition of holy orders.
It's also important to note that traditionally, the Eastern Orthodox service has no kneeling in the Western sense of standing on one's knees, but nowadays many churches of mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy have begun to use pews and kneelers, and thus have begin kneeling in some parts of the service. This is a custom borrowed from Roman Catholics. Traditional Orthodox and Old Believers reject kneeling and keep themselves in the zemnoy poklon (5) position during these parts of the service.
Orthodox tradition specifies that the faithful are not to prostrate themselves in prayer from Pascha (Easter) until Pentecost, or on any Sundays throughout the year. There is some variation in interpretation of this tradition. Old Believers tend to limit the prohibition only to those portions of worship which are specifically "prayer"; whereas mainstream Orthodox do not prostrate themselves at all on these days (with certain exceptions, such as when the Exaltation of the Cross falls on a Sunday).
That's interesting. In the Catholic Church 1 & 2 are common (or perhaps 3 without the hand to the earth). Priests will use 6 at one of the Easter services and at their Ordination.
Some people use 5 privately when in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, but it's not liturgical (that I know of).
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MamaZ
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These people were alive were they not? The ones that you bow to are just statues of people to what some believe they looked like.. God says don't to that.. Do not. what part of do not does one not understand.. Do not even make them He said. But here we see them in all the churchs that believe in praying to the saints.. Mary being the main one everywhere with a baby Jesus.. Jesus still on the cross where He is not any more but now is on the right hand of the father.. But yet God has said do not make these and do not bow to them..Why then do you do as God said not to?
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MamaZ
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God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
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