Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

[GBTWC]

Time for Church you Guys Id love to stay and argue but I get to go Worship Our God
Love you Guy's please pray for me
Seeya

 

[winsome]

BTW could you refresh my memory on what exactly this debate on the cannon has to do with the OP ?

This is GT. Why should comments have to be related to the OP after the first 5 posts?

 

[winsome]

Correct me if Im Wrong but both Cataholics and Orthodox Gotta do some spiritual gymnastics depending on which one you are, you aren't pure enough to approach God till youve either been to confession or you cant pray to God directly so you gotta go through a Saint

I think if these questions are answered it would help to see what this debate is really about

You are wrong. The normal mode of prayer is to the Father through Jesus.

Nobody has to pray to a Saint or via a Saint.

It's protestants that make a big thing about our asking Saints for their intercession.

 

[Thekla]

maybe I missed it becouse this is the first time Ive read this passage but what did they need Pharmakia for? becouse this definitely sounds like voodoo dude
then there is medicinal value to smoking fish livers and hearts ? it sounds like they might have been smokin something else if you know what I mean

ya never know

one portion of the fish was to be used for Tobit's eyes (he was blind)

- as a side example on 'traditional medicine', our infant daughter had terrible stomach problems at about 3 mos old. The doc gave her strong prescription meds - they helped, but were not intended for infants and super expensive. When we stopped giving them to her, the problem returned. So, I used an old middle eastern stomach remedy -- ground masticha on her tongue 2 times a day. The stomach (and accompanying intestinal problem) cleared up -- and didn't return after I stopped giving her the masticha. Total cost of ineffective prescription meds: 80 plus $. Total cost of masticha used: 75 cents. Masticha, as it turns out, kills the bacteria that causes ulcers.

my story is a bit OT, but why should I assume a different motivation for the use of the fish in Tobit ?

Raphael is quite clear that prayer is needed - so I tend to associate the 'fish incense' with the use of incense as preparation ...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is this little statuette symbolizing as I thought it was a guy instead of a woman.

http://fratres.wordpress.com/2008/0...t-within-this-heart-fratres-blog-news-062908/

Tamil Tigers hold Our Lady of Madhu hostage (for protection!)..
The Catholic community in Bethlehem, Palestine has issued a statement urging the leaders of the Catholic Church in Sri Lanka to persuade the LTTE to return the statue of our Lady of Madhu to its original shrine so that it would be accessible to devotees who belong to all religions in the island, foreign websites reported. Read The Story.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree. Sure looks like a guy to me, but then the statue is holding a miniature statue, which apparently is supposed to represent the infant Christ, so that would make the larger statue to be Mary. If it is only a statue, I am unsure why there is such a brouhaha over it. It is not like a kidnapping. If necessary I am sure a new statue could be easily made.

 

[Kristos]

Kinda reminds me of Chucky...

 

[GBTWC]

You are wrong. The normal mode of prayer is to the Father through Jesus.

that's Good becouse its the only one we see practiced in scripture

Nobody has to pray to a Saint or via a Saint.

true dat I mean why would you when you can go straight to the Creator

It's protestants that make a big thing about our asking Saints for their intercession.

you must be smokin fish guts bro cuz Ive never heard a protestant make a big deal outta it they just dont do it cuz it would distract from our God. Im sure it seems like a big deal on this thread cuz were talkin about it. but I assure you the attitude at my Church is Mary was blessed for being chosen by her Creator but to pray to her is a waste of time becouse shes worshiping God not acting as a heavenly switchboard operator for our prayers. We go straight to the source from where all blessing flow

 

[GBTWC]

Here's a very interesting Cataholic statue that has Mary on the cross ?????

just so you guys dont think Im prejudice Here's one from the Orthodox
Byzantine, 11th.Century , one of the finest bronze Processional Crosses we have ever seen, engraved with the Virgin Orans with the Christ Child in clothing suggestive of a warrior flanked by St's Peter and Paul. Provenance, the Constable-Maxwell Collection.

It seems ever since the beginning satan has been trying to take the full glory from our Lord and Creator when in truth all glory honour prayers belong to and we should bow only before the true and risen King Jesus Christ

 

[Thekla]

IMO, this does not look like "Mary crucified"; the representation of Mary and the Christ child that you show is actually the icon of an event in the 'history of salvation" - it is known as an icon of the Incarnation (not the Theotokos).

To summarize, the cross you show represents the "history of salvation" -- it includes the incarnation, the crucifixion and -as in the EO, the crucifixion is a reminder also of the resurrection, the resurrection as well.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary has no business being on the cross at all. For it is not her blood shed for sins but Christ alone.

 

[Kristos]

Mary has no business being on the cross at all. For it is not her blood shed for sins but Christ alone.

That is a ridiculous straw-man. You are the first to say anything about Mary's blood being shed. These are obviously not Mary on the cross, as in being crucified - let's get a grip people.

This Orthodox icon is actually very theologically sounds. Looking at should remind us of several important biblical concepts:
1. Christ was fully human (and fully God). This is represented by Christ in the bosom of Mary.
2. Christ died on the Cross for mankind, conquering death by death (I don't see it on this icon, but many times this is reinforced by skulls at the bottom of the cross)
3. The apostles were granted power to bind and forgive sins and will be seated next to Christ at the Last Judgment.

If you look at this and see Mary crucified, then you are projecting your own prejudices, for nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[GBTWC]

Here's a wonderfull coptic Icon entitled Mary enthroned in Heaven ?

Here's another lovely Icon Entitled King and Queen

OOPS is this the pope bowing b-4 a Graven image of mary with a crown placed on Her head no way this must be photo shoped Im sure the pope knows better than that?

DARN PAPERAZZI !

I dont see why this veneration of mary thing is such a big deal it doesnt seem to get outa hand at all

 

[GBTWC]

That is a ridiculous straw-man. You are the first to say anything about Mary's blood being shed. .

maybe Im wrong but it looks like Her mands are pierced ? ouch thats gonna bleed

 

[bbbbbbb]

Within the RCC there are churches not only dedicated to Mary, but to specific aspects of her. I have run across several Churches of the Immaculate Conception, for example. For those who don't know, the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the virgin birth of Jesus, but is promoted as being the sinless conception of the Virgin Mary, thus elevating her to a status above the rest of us mere mortals. There is also a large following in the RCC of the Sacred Heart of Mary, as shown in the previous post.

Please note, that this is limited to the RCC and I have not seen or heard of such things in the EOC.

 

[Kristos]

maybe Im wrong but it looks like Her mands are pierced ? ouch thats gonna bleed

So what's your point house of straw? You want these people to come back to true Catholism? I'm not Catholic so don't take it from me, but it has be stated over and over again, that this type of thing is not in keeping with the teachings of their church. Nobody posting on this board is advocating or condoning it, so who are you debating?

 

[bbbbbbb]

So what's your point house of straw? You want these people to come back to true Catholism? I'm not Catholic so don't take it from me, but it has be stated over and over again, that this type of thing is not in keeping with the teachings of their church. Nobody posting on this board is advocating or condoning it, so who are you debating?

I beg to differ. This sort of thing is in keeping with the general tenor of the Marian dogmas declared to be infallible in the mid-twentieth century by the Pope. The results of these pronouncements have been far-reaching. The apparent intent was to further solidify the unique identity of the RCC in opposition to other denominations. One result was that it created a larger chasm between the RCC and the EOC, as well as the Protestant denominations. Another has been that it fueled much of the latent Mariology within Roman Catholicism which is now pressing the papacy to infallibly proclaim Mary as co-redemptrix.

Given the OP, this is in keeping with the discussion at hand.

 

[lionroar0]

IMO, this does not look like "Mary crucified"; the representation of Mary and the Christ child that you show is actually the icon of an event in the 'history of salvation" - it is known as an icon of the Incarnation (not the Theotokos).

To summarize, the cross you show represents the "history of salvation" -- it includes the incarnation, the crucifixion and -as in the EO, the crucifixion is a reminder also of the resurrection, the resurrection as well.

Both crosses show the samething.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

maybe Im wrong but it looks like Her mands are pierced ? ouch thats gonna bleed

You need credible sources to make a credible argument.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

I beg to differ. This sort of thing is in keeping with the general tenor of the Marian dogmas declared to be infallible in the mid-twentieth century by the Pope. The results of these pronouncements have been far-reaching. The apparent intent was to further solidify the unique identity of the RCC in opposition to other denominations. One result was that it created a larger chasm between the RCC and the EOC, as well as the Protestant denominations. Another has been that it fueled much of the latent Mariology within Roman Catholicism which is now pressing the papacy to infallibly proclaim Mary as co-redemptrix.

Given the OP, this is in keeping with the discussion at hand.

ROLF.

So you know the intent or atleast the intent of the RCC and then say that these creates a larger chasm.LOL

Pretty funny since the intent of the CC is written in official documents.

And both the EO and protestants have their own theology but it's only the CC that created a larger chasm.

You post is not based in reality.


Peace