Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

[MamaZ]

Good, so you agree that bowing down is not the same as worship.

Yes I believe that it is when done to humble yourselves to a person. We see in the NT scriptures that this was not accepted.. Not by the Apostles nor even the angels..

 

[MamaZ]

So if not accepted by them why should it even be done?

 

[winsome]

Yes I believe that it is when done to humble yourselves to a person. We see in the NT scriptures that this was not accepted.. Not by the Apostles nor even the angels..

What was not accepted - bowing down or worship?

And when you make claims about what scriptures say, can you please back them up with the actual scriptures.

Thanks

 

[GBTWC]

Yes you are a co-redeemer but you were not chosen by the Father to bear His Son. You did not carry everything that is God with in yourself. You have no such honor.

I honour Marys memory when I read scripture about her to our Sunday school or teach about her to anyone or the fact that she's even remembered is honoring but what I see in some Cataholic and Orthodox churches is clearly worship

Sin was brough into the world through man and woman. Adam and Eve. Likewise Salvation entered into the world through man and woman.

so your saying Mary was Christs wife like eve was Adams? was she His Birth mom or and um uh who's the prince of heaven then ? or the princess we should worship them too ooh can I be the jester

Your reading way more into my post that's there about Mary being the new eve.

your right its very simple and obvious c'mon everybody grab a statue lets bow

Giving honor where honor is due, bowing and praying does not mean worship.

if it looks like a duck walks like a duck a quacks like a duck it must be worship

And don't you realize that He did not have to be born of a woman and take on humanity for us and die a horrible death for us?

Don't you realize that's where the miracle of God's grace is?

Peace

this is a different can of worms so I will simply answer

And the Scriptures also say to give honor where honor is due.

Peace

was honor due to the angel that john tried to worship in rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

If Jesus had come from the womb of a kangaroo, we would not be saved, because Jesus would not be human like us. He would have an animal nature and a divine nature.

are you saying God is incapable of bringing a a Human FROM an animal?

Animals would be saved, but not humans.

what about the vegetables that sounds racists or vegist

Jesus received His humanity from Mary.

correction : Jesus created His humanity through Mary. you see we have this little warning in the beginning of Romans that shows man worshiping the created rather than the creator and God doesnt like that I tend to take that seriously

As Lionroar said, bowing is not worship.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Detail from Religion, Charles Sprague Pearce (1896). Library of Congress Thomas Jefferson Building, Washington, D.C.Worship usually refers to specific acts of religious devotion, typically directed to one or more deities. It is the informal term in English for what sociologists of religion call cultus, the body of practices and traditions that correspond to theology.

Religious worship may be performed individually, within informal groups, or as part of a formal meeting. It occurs in a variety of locations including houses, in rented venues, outdoors, or in buildings specially constructed for the purpose, referred to as places of worship. Most religions place an emphasis on regular worship and many organise meetings for this purpose at frequent intervals (often weekly).

In its older sense in the English language of worthiness or respect (Anglo-Saxon worthscripe), worship may sometimes refer to actions directed at members of higher social classes (such as lords or monarchs) or to particularly esteemed persons

websters says
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship

we all make the mistake (sin) of worshiping the wrong things sometimes but some have turned it into a religion and practice it, Mary worship is a prime example of this.I give Mary's memory great respect But the only name I will Bow b-4 is God the Father Son and Holy Spirit

When a performer bows or curtseys to the audience and blows a kiss at them, is the performer worshiping his audience? If you bow to royalty or to the primary authority of your country, are you worshiping that person? "Pray" simply means to ask, and we ask the saints to intercede with God for us, and we pray to God ourselves as well. It's just like asking others to pray for you. They are just members of our prayer chain.

first of all if anybody ever sees me curtsey and blow a kiss to anyone I give you permission to kick my ass, Ive never bowed to politician of any sort if that's what you mean Because I recognise and they should too that any Authority that they may have is from God.
as far as prayer goes if your praying to anyone but God your Giving them Gods Glory or ascribing to them undue worth or worth-ship. those who are dead in Christ are not heavenly operators relaying prayers to God . I dont know about you but my line goes straight to God Because of what Christ did for me. and its nothing like asking a living brother or sister to pray for me Ive heard that analogy so many times and its so different.
when i ask a brother to pray for me this is therapeutic the living body here on earth has Gifts that can edify, strengthen, and heal, prophesy, exhort , etc all by the moving of God that is why we ask for brothers to pray for us and beyond that we have example of this in scripture ,but we dont have examples of praying to those who have died unless you count the witch of endor and that was a sin.


with love in Christ

 

[GBTWC]

What was not accepted - bowing down or worship?

And when you make claims about what scriptures say, can you please back them up with the actual scriptures.

Thanks

both

 

[winsome]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Detail from Religion, Charles Sprague Pearce (1896). Library of Congress Thomas Jefferson Building, Washington, D.C.Worship usually refers to specific acts of religious devotion, typically directed to one or more deities. It is the informal term in English for what sociologists of religion call cultus, the body of practices and traditions that correspond to theology.

Religious worship may be performed individually, within informal groups, or as part of a formal meeting. It occurs in a variety of locations including houses, in rented venues, outdoors, or in buildings specially constructed for the purpose, referred to as places of worship. Most religions place an emphasis on regular worship and many organise meetings for this purpose at frequent intervals (often weekly).

In its older sense in the English language of worthiness or respect (Anglo-Saxon worthscripe), worship may sometimes refer to actions directed at members of higher social classes (such as lords or monarchs) or to particularly esteemed persons

websters says
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship

The word originally had a broad meaning of being worthy and until recently we (in England anyway) used to address a judge or a mayor as “your worship”.

The old version of the anglican marriage service used until relatively recently (and I think still used by some) contains the phrase "with my body I thee worship".

So worship generally is just honouring. It is only relatively recently that protestants have narrowed the word to relate to God alone.

 

[winsome]

both

But no scripture to prove the point?

 

[GBTWC]

The word originally had a broad meaning of being worthy and until recently we (in England anyway) used to address a judge or a mayor as “your worship”.

The old version of the anglican marriage service used until relatively recently (and I think still used by some) contains the phrase "with my body I thee worship".

So worship generally is just honouring. It is only relatively recently that protestants have narrowed the word to relate to God alone.

that is a perfect example of how man messes up something reserved for God. thank our Lord for His Grace. remember becouse something is old doesnt make it right

 

[GBTWC]

But no scripture to prove the point?

ok give me a minute Ill look it up

 

[GBTWC]

But no scripture to prove the point?

ok give me a minute Ill look it up

acts 14:14-18 and then as I posted b-4 Rev 19:10 and I think theres more but Im to lazy to find all of them

 

[winsome]

acts 14:14-18 and then as I posted b-4 Rev 19:10 and I think theres more but Im to lazy to find all of them

Acts 14:14-18. They were trying to treat Paul; and Barnabus as gods and wanted to sacrifice to them I hope you are not saying that Catholics treat Mary as a god and sacrifice to her. The situation comes nowhere near proving your point.


Rev 19:10
"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant."

Catholics get tired of saying that we do not worship Mary. Bowing is not worship, it is giving honour. Even MamaZ accepts that.
Read post#276

 

[winsome]

that is a perfect example of how man messes up something reserved for God. thank our Lord for His Grace. remember becouse something is old doesnt make it right

You have the cart before the horse here.

The word worship comes from the anglo saxon
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200. (from the Online Entymology Dictionary)

It is protestants, in recent times, who have started redefining the word to apply to God alone.

 

[GBTWC]

Acts 14:14-18. They were trying to treat Paul; and Barnabus as gods and wanted to sacrifice to them I hope you are not saying that Catholics treat Mary as a god and sacrifice to her. The situation comes nowhere near proving your point.


Rev 19:10
"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant."

Catholics get tired of saying that we do not worship Mary. Bowing is not worship, it is giving honour. Even MamaZ accepts that.
Read post#276

bowing is a form of self sacrifice

 

[GBTWC]

You have the cart before the horse here.

The word worship comes from the anglo saxon
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200. (from the Online Entymology Dictionary)

It is protestants, in recent times, who have started redefining the word to apply to God alone.

I dont get your point God alone is worthy yet people are worshiping mary's lifeless statue

 

[MoNiCa4316]

No one bows to the statues, the statues are just visual reminders...we bow to the Saints they represent out of respect for them.

This isn't worship, because worship is something that comes from the heart, it's not just an action. (wouldn't you agree that if someone bows to God but has no love for Him, that's not real worship?) It's the intention that separates worship from veneration. When we bow to Mary our intention is to show her respect, because she is the Mother of God. When we bow to Christ, our intention is to worship Him. During Mass, we kneel before Christ.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying.

the Bible says that the prayer of a righteous man avails much.

 

[winsome]

No one bows to the statues, the statues are just visual reminders...we bow to the Saints they represent out of respect for them.

This isn't worship, because worship is something that comes from the heart, it's not just an action. (wouldn't you agree that if someone bows to God but has no love for Him, that's not real worship?) It's the intention that separates worship from veneration. When we bow to Mary our intention is to show her respect, because she is the Mother of God. When we bow to Christ, our intention is to worship Him. During Mass, we kneel before Christ.



the Bible says that the prayer of a righteous man avails much.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No one bows to the statues, the statues are just visual reminders...we bow to the Saints they represent out of respect for them.

This isn't worship, because worship is something that comes from the heart, it's not just an action. (wouldn't you agree that if someone bows to God but has no love for Him, that's not real worship?) It's the intention that separates worship from veneration. When we bow to Mary our intention is to show her respect, because she is the Mother of God. When we bow to Christ, our intention is to worship Him. During Mass, we kneel before Christ.



the Bible says that the prayer of a righteous man avails much.

During my relatively long life I have yet to see a Catholic bow before a saint (living or otherwise). All the times I have seen a Catholic bow it is before a statue or an altar. I think it would be quite impermissible, if not sacriligious to turn around during mass and bow to the rear of the nave in honor of Christ who fills all things. In fact, prior to the Reformation in England it was illegal for anyone to avert their eyes from the Host during the Consecration.

 

[Thekla]

if the more ancient traditions are kept, one faces west to denounce Satan, and one is not to turn their back to the altar (as it symbolically shows denial of God); this is a way of the body showing the teaching in Matthew etc that Christ will come again from the east.

 

[GBTWC]

No one bows to the statues,

the statues are just visual reminders...we bow to the Saints they represent out of respect for them.

where do you get the Idea that bowing to a saint isn't a sin

This isn't worship, because worship is something that comes from the heart, it's not just an action. (wouldn't you agree that if someone bows to God but has no love for Him, that's not real worship?) It's the intention that separates worship from veneration.

so in the same line of thinking an adulterer isn't really sinning if his heart isn't in it

When we bow to Mary our intention is to show her respect, because she is the Mother of God. When we bow to Christ, our intention is to worship Him. During Mass, we kneel before Christ.

so by your own admission you do the same actions to Christ and Marys statues wich are man made (graven) images but the difference is your heart. OK if your heart is right there is a difference but what is to be said for all those who youve stumbled into worshiping graven images out of following your example besides I believe if your heart was right you wouldnt come so close to doing anything that is bowing before anything but the King of Kings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNFk...ingcontending.com/category/roman-catholicism/


isn't it interesting in this video how everyone reacts seems to me their heart are involved its what comes from your heart that dictates your actions such as bowing b-4 or crowning or praying to

 

[jckstraw72]

where do you get the Idea that bowing to a saint isn't a sin

where do you get the idea that it is?