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Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...
- Thread starter simonthezealot
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Ok...first so you grasp the passage, i am bringing out other passages which show man can be exalted...
Matthew 23
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
2 Corinthians 12
7 And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me.
James 4
10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
NOW for what Mary has said...
Luke 1
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. 51 He hath showed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
If you notice, she says 'exalted' as in past tense because as the Angel called Her 'Full of Grace' which in Greek the actual word was in past tense form and not because she already said Yes [which she hadnt], but because she was already filled with grace from God.
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- Apr 11, 2005
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When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are "Chaire, kecharitomene!"
[Caire, kecaritomene!].
Chaire (which means both "rejoice" and "hail") is the salutation, like the word "hello" in "hello, Cathy!" The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name "Cathy" is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name "Mary," but the word kecharitomene.
Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as "highly favored daughter."
Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is "daughter," a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). "Daughter" is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn't really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address "you" or "one" and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.
caritow
The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means "to grace, favor." On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of "grace" or "favor" in them.
ke
The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel's greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be "you are certified to teach." "Are" indicates a present state, "certified" shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.
mene The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. "Passive" means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is "grace" and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that "someone graced Mary," rather than "Mary graced." Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied "someone" is God. "Participle," in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but "to grace" is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.
[Caire, kecaritomene!].
Chaire (which means both "rejoice" and "hail") is the salutation, like the word "hello" in "hello, Cathy!" The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name "Cathy" is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name "Mary," but the word kecharitomene.
Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as "highly favored daughter."
Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is "daughter," a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). "Daughter" is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn't really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address "you" or "one" and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.
caritow
The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means "to grace, favor." On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of "grace" or "favor" in them.
ke
The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel's greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be "you are certified to teach." "Are" indicates a present state, "certified" shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.
mene The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. "Passive" means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is "grace" and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that "someone graced Mary," rather than "Mary graced." Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied "someone" is God. "Participle," in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but "to grace" is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.
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I always invite them in and break the ice telling them if they still believed in polygamy I would have joined once upon a time but by the time I am done praying over them, learning their first names and am done with the litteral translation of the Textus Receptus Bible they pull out the book of mormon and then after that and by the time I am done with the CCC they have to have their elder call me but he never does.Nor do they come back either, but the door is always open.
THat made me laugh again as I remembered my own experiences with the LDS folks. They came multiple times (primarily because it was a cold winter) and I finally ended up on their black list. That summer they were in the neighborhood again and actually avoided me as I told them my neighbor was not home, but they were welcome to chat with me.
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GBTWC
God bless the Working class
nobody's questioning whether God exalts the humble that is all throughout scripture but why is it you think mary is worthy of worship I think its funny that in one post you guys are arguing that you dont worship Her than now your arguing that she's to be exalted above all other humans that sounds like worship to me .
Ill say it again if it sounds like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be Idol worship
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GBTWC
God bless the Working class
Attention: all those who are posting scripture trying to find a reason to exalt Mary any higher than any other Human in order to justify bowing b-4 or praying to Her there is something you need to know reading into scripture something that is not there is dangerous and should be avoided this act is called
Isogesis "Reading into the scriptures". This sounds TERRIBLE, but that is not the intent of the phrase "reading into". This merely means you start with a subject, and look for scriptures that pertain to it. If this was done objectively, with the whole passage being studied and not just the verse from the concordance, perhaps this would be valid enough. Unfortunately, the critics often times do NOT look at the rest of the passage. They are well intentioned, but fallible men who have an opinion, and find as much material in support of their position as they can, and then slap together a theory. They never stop to re-examine whether their basic assumption is correct, so they never bother to study scripture in context to see if it REALLY agrees with their position or not. The proper attitude for a Christian believer is to take all of our basic assumptions and make them subject for the truths of God's word. That is where the critics miss it. may God Bless you and keep you Love GBTWC & Oogly the naked mole-rat
Isogesis "Reading into the scriptures". This sounds TERRIBLE, but that is not the intent of the phrase "reading into". This merely means you start with a subject, and look for scriptures that pertain to it. If this was done objectively, with the whole passage being studied and not just the verse from the concordance, perhaps this would be valid enough. Unfortunately, the critics often times do NOT look at the rest of the passage. They are well intentioned, but fallible men who have an opinion, and find as much material in support of their position as they can, and then slap together a theory. They never stop to re-examine whether their basic assumption is correct, so they never bother to study scripture in context to see if it REALLY agrees with their position or not. The proper attitude for a Christian believer is to take all of our basic assumptions and make them subject for the truths of God's word. That is where the critics miss it. may God Bless you and keep you Love GBTWC & Oogly the naked mole-rat
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Attention: all those who are posting scripture trying to find a reason to exalt Mary any higher than any other Human in order to justify bowing b-4 or praying to Her there is something you need to know reading into scripture something that is not there is dangerous and should be avoided this act is called
Isogesis "Reading into the scriptures". This sounds TERRIBLE, but that is not the intent of the phrase "reading into". This merely means you start with a subject, and look for scriptures that pertain to it. If this was done objectively, with the whole passage being studied and not just the verse from the concordance, perhaps this would be valid enough. Unfortunately, the critics often times do NOT look at the rest of the passage. They are well intentioned, but fallible men who have an opinion, and find as much material in support of their position as they can, and then slap together a theory. They never stop to re-examine whether their basic assumption is correct, so they never bother to study scripture in context to see if it REALLY agrees with their position or not. The proper attitude for a Christian believer is to take all of our basic assumptions and make them subject for the truths of God's word. That is where the critics miss it. may God Bless you and keep you Love GBTWC & Oogly the naked mole-rat
The problem with that is that there was no bible till the end of the fourth century.
Christianity was alive before then.
Peace
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Yes thanks. A lot of folks do that.
This is why the Church has always practiced; Hermeneutics: Understanding Revelation
You see it takes authority from Jesus to interpret the Sacred Holy Scriptures correctly. Sort of like asking the writer what he meant.
Otherwise you have a bunch of folks all claiming to do it through the Holy Spirit yet all coming up with different conclusions. Isn't that odd?
By the way, thanks for that farting ad hominem on Luther. That has to be the most stylish one I have ever heard.
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As was Judaism. In case you don't know, the Old Testament considerable predates Christianity, not to mention the fourth century. In the fourth century the good Church fathers didn't sit down and compose a Bible. They established the New Testament canon and recognized the Jewish Old Testament canon. The New Testament books were written during the first century.
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And many ECF's will confirm the sufficiency and perpescuity of these scriptures long before Nicea...
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GBTWC
God bless the Working class
.
but not those who would insert their preconception of Mary into scripture. I cringe when I hear these O.T. interpretations of Mary being inserted into Christs place even though scripture says the volume of the book was written about Him
thanks for that link here's a part from it that I found particularly humorous
"Roman Catholic Christians have often been accused of not being allowed to read the Bible on their own. This could not be further from the truth. When, in history, Catholics were forbidden to read the Bible it was a particular translation which usually was unauthorized and highly illiterate in its fidelity to original sources.(Boy Im glad we had the popes to translate for us they've always been an excellent example of Christianity) In other words, unauthorized versions were often just simply bad translations.
It is often said Roman Catholics cannot interpret the Bible on their own. The Papal Encyclical, Divino Afflante Spiritus, of Pope Pius XII in 1943 attempted to counteract this error by stating that there are but few texts whose understanding has been determined by the teaching authority of the Church; and Catholics do indeed have freedom to interpret the Scriptures. "
and who has that authority according to you? the popeYou see it takes authority from Jesus to interpret the Sacred Holy Scriptures correctly. Sort of like asking the writer what he meant.
well proper hermeneutic is not injecting something in that fits your bias and if you have the Holy spirit and not the pope dwelling in your heart you can interpret properly. for instance several pages ago I asked for a scripture that shows that Mary should be elevated above normal believers and what was posted were scriptures that Showed Gods glory but somehow becouse some folks want to justify the mistake of worshiping Mary there presuppositions were inserted in Christs place
I never thought id be arguing against luther with a CatoholicBy the way, thanks for that farting ad hominem on Luther. That has to be the most stylish one I have ever heard.
the point was Luther is not infallible He had things right sometimes but becouse he practiced something it doesnt make it doctrine. I wish people would see that about the popes Rom 3:3-4What if some were unfaithful? Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,
So that you may be justified in your words,
and prevail in your judging.
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Oh? I believe you asked How God exalted Mary?
He tells us how and why He did this in His word. Its your decision to accept His word or not.
It all means that following His will entails a promise from Him. One of being exalted ourselves with a crown in heaven.
I trust that He is always faithful and doesn't need my permission to do anything He sees fit, even coming to us through a woman who He chose to exalt.
Hermeneutics take perseverance to grasp.
Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another.
Peace.
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We do not see God exaulting a woman.. We see that Jesus is exaulted and that His word is exaulted but no where in scripture is any human being exaulted. For human beings are just created beings to bring Glory to God and To God be all the Glory. We are all vessels for Gods glory..
We see that Jesus is exaulted and that His word is exaulted but no where in scripture is any human being exaulted. For human beings are just created beings to bring Glory to God and To God be all the Glory. We are all vessels for Gods glory..
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I agree only Jesus deserves to be exalted and is exalted above all others.
Php 2:9 Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
Doesn't mean God doesn't give all kinds of folks much more than they deserve.
Mat 23:12 And whoever will exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever will humble himself shall be exalted.
Luk 1:52 He put down powerful ones from thrones, and exalted lowly ones.
Luk 18:14And the one humbling himself will be exalted.
2Co 11:7 Or did I commit sin, humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge?
Do you refuse to give your child good things? It might exalt them
Of course not. How much more does God give to His?
He even gives good to those who hate or don't believe in Him.
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord,
Luk 1:47 and my spirit exulted in God My Savior.
Jas 4:10 Be humbled before the Lord, and He will exalt you.
1Pe 5:6 Then be humbled under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in time;
Humans do have worth as children of God because HE says so and without free will we are nothing more than puppets.
Php 2:9 Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
Doesn't mean God doesn't give all kinds of folks much more than they deserve.
Mat 23:12 And whoever will exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever will humble himself shall be exalted.
Luk 1:52 He put down powerful ones from thrones, and exalted lowly ones.
Luk 18:14And the one humbling himself will be exalted.
2Co 11:7 Or did I commit sin, humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge?
Do you refuse to give your child good things? It might exalt them
Of course not. How much more does God give to His?
He even gives good to those who hate or don't believe in Him.
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord,
Luk 1:47 and my spirit exulted in God My Savior.
Jas 4:10 Be humbled before the Lord, and He will exalt you.
1Pe 5:6 Then be humbled under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in time;
Humans do have worth as children of God because HE says so and without free will we are nothing more than puppets.
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GBTWC
God bless the Working class
Im not sure what this all means but I think its you trying to dance your way outa yer own words it seems to me your now saying mary is exalted just as we all are if thats so weres my statue I want to have a statueOh? I believe you asked How God exalted Mary?
He tells us how and why He did this in His word. Its your decision to accept His word or not.
It all means that following His will entails a promise from Him. One of being exalted ourselves with a crown in heaven.
I trust that He is always faithful and doesn't need my permission to do anything He sees fit, even coming to us through a woman who He chose to exalt.
Hermeneutics take perseverance to grasp..
dear cookie aka JoabAniasWho are "we" and what did you win, a cookie?
We= whoevers on Gods side
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I agree but it does not mean God exhaults mere human men or women.
Jesus came from the Father..Exault them or bless them? Difference of words there..
Without free will we are slaves.. Which the scripture tells us we are. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness...
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GBTWC
God bless the Working class
uh oh different debateI agree but it does not mean God exhaults mere human men or women.
Exault them or bless them? Difference of words there..
Without free will we are slaves.. Which the scripture tells us we are. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness...
we win http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7259260
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Get out of what words exactly? The Scriptures that we're quoted.
Sounds like your skirting the issue.Mary is clearly exalted. Top of the non-Deity pack.
Luk 1:48 For He looked upon the humiliation of His slave woman. For, behold, from now on all generations will count me blessed. 1 Sam. 1:11
Can you show me in scripture where it says anything like this of anyone else? It proves she was the most humble.
Perhaps the problem here is not knowing what it means to be humble?
Besides thinking only a deity should be exalted of course. God tells us otherwise and exalts His children as He sees fit all the time.
Here are a couple of good questions;
Why aren't all Christians in agreement on doctrine?
Doesn't Jesus want us to be one?
People want to know where a seeming deity can come from, its simple really; misconception or denial of the truth.
Its not impossible to find a false deity. It happens all the time. Its their own error though. There is no error in Sacred and Holy Scripture. Its quite clear. Now that error goes both ways too, just as some may take it to far into idolotry some may not buy it at all into apostacy.
I think thats why Jesus said only those could come to Him who the Father gave to Him and why it takes the Holy Spirit to understand every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Let us pray the Father give us all completely to Jesus. Amen.
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