Where is the Objective Morality?

[durangodawood]

Do you believe you know what remorse is?

Anyone who's felt it doesnt need to believe they know what it is. They just know.

 

[Astrid]

You're using "morality" weird. A "morality" is the set of rules. That morality is "objective" if those rules are facts. What you're stating could be the basis of an objective morality, but it wouldn't be the "objective morality" itself.

I think what you want to say is, "One ought to love others as himself" is true.

If that statement is a true fact (the same way that 2+2=4 is a true fact), then morality is objective.

Expecting me to love the man who raped me is to put it mildly,
profoundly unreasonable.

Calling that expectation something about objective
morality is even worse.

 

[childeye 2]

Anyone who's felt it doesnt need to believe they know what it is. They just know.

Exactly! There is an objective morality.

 

[childeye 2]

Expecting me to love the man who raped me is to put it mildly,
profoundly unreasonable.

Calling that expectation something about objective
morality is even worse.

The principle says "Love others as YOU would want to be loved", so subjectively speaking it's your call. Personally, in MY subjective view, I see a rapist as a clear immoral threat to society that should not be allowed to prowl freely in the community, even because I would not want to be raped. That's an obviously clear objective morality to me. You are proof of that objective morality.

Now if you disagree, then you tell me why the rapist should be allowed to continue to harm others.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Exactly. There is an objective morality.

Remorse is a feeling not a moral truth.

 

[childeye 2]

Remorse is a feeling not a moral truth.

Remorse is a feeling that is a part of reality, therefore it is a factual matter of our existence. That's what makes it true/real. It's moral because it is the realization, regret, and sorrow of an immorality done to others, which makes it a product of the knowledge of what is true morally.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Remorse is a feeling that is a part of reality, therefore it is a factual matter of our existence. That's what makes it true/real. It's moral because it is the regret and sorrow of an immorality done to others which makes it knowledge of what is true morally.

So what about the people that do not feel remorse?

 

[childeye 2]

So what about the people that do not feel remorse?

That sounds like a sociopathic tendency.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Exactly! There is an objective morality.

It's bizarre seeing people interpret internal feelings as a way to determine objective facts.

 

[childeye 2]

It's bizarre seeing people interpret internal feelings as a way to determine objective facts.

Do you know what kindness is? And I don't mean looking it up in the dictionary to know. I mean if someone were kind to you, would you know it? And how would you feel about it? Is it good/bad?

Respectfully, I don't see what's bizarre about it.

 

[Astrid]

The principle says "Love others as YOU would want to be loved", so subjectively speaking it's your call. Personally, in MY subjective view, I see a rapist as a clear immoral threat to society that should not be allowed to prowl freely in the community, even because I would not want to be raped. That's an obviously clear objective morality to me. You are proof of that objective morality.

Now if you disagree, then you tell me why the rapist should be allowed to continue to harm others.

Sorry ah, I can not make coherent sense of this.
I do not and am unable to " love" that
sadistic psycho.
Of course i would prefer he had been a good
Christian and not harmed me.
I hope he is permanently locked up.

I dont get your point, at all.

 

[Astrid]

Do you know what kindness is? And I don't mean looking it up in the dictionary to know. I mean if someone were kind to you, would you know it? And how would you feel about it? Is it good/bad?

Respectfully, I don't see what's bizarre about it.

Its not bizarre but its risky. Self indulgence is the source of much evil.

 

[Astrid]

Exactly! There is an objective morality.

Identify some general rules of objective morality?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Do you know what kindness is? And I don't mean looking it up in the dictionary to know. I mean if someone were kind to you, would you know it? And how would you feel about it? Is it good/bad?

Respectfully, I don't see what's bizarre about it.

There's nothing bizarre about kindness. There's nothing bizarre in making these personal feelings the basis for how you treat other people. The bizarre part is concluding that the-way-you-feel has produced an objective fact, which is defined to be independent of personal feelings.

 

[childeye 2]

Sorry ah, I can not make coherent sense of this.
I do not and am unable to " love" that
sadistic psycho.
Of course i would prefer he had been a good
Christian and not harmed me.
I hope he is permanently locked up.

I dont get your point, at all.

From what you say here it sounds like you do understand it somewhat. You're expressing the same sentiments that I did. You seem to read love others... and immediately think of loving a rapist along with everyone else. But I can understand why your mind immediately goes there, even though I have never been raped.

prin·ci·ple
/ˈprinsəpəl/

noun

1. 1.
   a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.

As pertains to any moral principle, there is no expectation for you to love a rapist whatsoever. It is a moral/immoral equation used to determine objective morality/immorality from a subjective understanding of what is moral and immoral. "Love others" implies the community as a whole. If it's telling you anything, it's telling you what is right and wrong behavior as a community.

"As you would want to be loved". This applies to the one reasoning upon it. One must ask themself, How, would I want to be loved? For example, when applied in the scenario you present, one would ask themself, "Would I want to be raped?" My answer is NO and so is yours. So, the conclusion is, "It's wrong to rape others" because that is not subjectively perceived as love by you, or me. To "Love others", we must not rape others, including rapists.

 

[durangodawood]

There's nothing bizarre about kindness. There's nothing bizarre in making these personal feelings the basis for how you treat other people. The bizarre part is concluding that the-way-you-feel has produced an objective fact, which is defined to be independent of personal feelings.

The way humans respond to kindness, as assessed through scientific observation, is an objective fact.

We dont need to have direct access to actual interior experience to build a body of knowledge about these things.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The way humans respond to kindness, as assessed through scientific observation, is an objective fact.

The way my nose wrinkles at the smell of Brussels sprouts is an objective fact. This does not mean that Brussels sprouts are objectively smelly. My reaction is a result of my internal perception, not a fixed objective quality of the sprout.

 

[childeye 2]

The way my nose wrinkles at the smell of Brussels sprouts is an objective fact. This does not mean that Brussels sprouts are objectively smelly.

Respectfully, this is not in the moral/immoral context so it is useless as a comparison. Brussels sprouts are not people. Can you give no examples in a moral/immoral context to make your point?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Respectfully, this is not in the moral/immoral context so it is useless as a comparison. Brussels sprouts are not people. Can you give no examples in a moral/immoral context to make your point?

Hilda has an abortion following a rape.

Bob judges that Hilda's abortion was not immoral.
Kate judges that Hilda's abortion was immoral.

People have different moral judgments of the same objective facts.

If moral judgments are themselves objective facts, in principle, we should be able to determine whether Bob or Kate is the one in line with the objective fact of the matter. No one seems to be able to offer a method for making this objective determination.

 

[durangodawood]

The way my nose wrinkles at the smell of Brussels sprouts is an objective fact. This does not mean that Brussels sprouts are objectively smelly. My reaction is a result of my internal perception, not a fixed objective quality of the sprout.

If we looked into it, we'd probably find some objective relationship between the odor of brussels sprouts and the typical or even idiosyncratic human responses. Probably something to do with bitterness and the way children are taught, or not, to overcome certain natural reactions.