Where is the Objective Morality?

[durangodawood]

Sorry, good people... Another angle on this topic.

I simply want to know where it is.

If its not an aspect of my own mental state or yours, then it must be out there somewhere, right? So.... where?

 

[Sabertooth]

For Born-Again Christians, it is found in John 14:26.
(Too many people equate "objective" with "static...")

 

[TheWhat?]

Materialism is fallacious.

When you encounter a real problem defined by an objective reality, do you stop to wonder where the solution is?

 

[jacks]

Sorry, good people... Another angle on this topic.

I simply want to know where it is.

If its not an aspect of my own mental state or yours, then it must be out there somewhere, right? So.... where?

It stems from a purposeful God and resides with Him and within our hearts.

BTW If this subject interest you, you might read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. This is what brought him to Christianity and is the subject of the first "book" in that book. There are 4 "books". Don't worry the total of all 4 "books" is less than 200 pages.

 

[durangodawood]

It stems from a purposeful God and resides with Him and within our hearts.

BTW If this subject interest you, you might read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. This is what brought him to Christianity and is the subject of the first "book" in that book. There are 4 "books". Don't worry the total of all 4 "books" is less than 200 pages.

That sounds like its entirely within the minds of sentient beings, and therefore more subjective than objective.

I did read Mere Christianity many year ago. I recall it wasnt compelling for various reasons, tho its been so long I cant recall what those reasons were.... just that his argument had massive holes in it.

 

[jacks]

That sounds like its entirely within the minds of sentient beings, and therefore more subjective than objective.

I did read Mere Christianity many year ago. I recall it wasnt compelling for various reasons, tho its been so long I cant recall what those reasons were.... just that his argument had massive holes in it.

Sorry I didn't read any of the other thread with a similar name, so am probably missing the point of your question. To me of course it is in the minds of sentient beings (like math). Were you looking for a physical location of morality? Like where it resides in some portion of our brains maybe? If that is the case I can just say, I don't know.

 

[Bradskii]

It stems from a purposeful God and resides with Him and within our hearts.

So know we know where it is. Tell me, do you agree with all other Christians in regard to morals?

 

[Tinker Grey]

I posted this in the other thread, and it's too good to not post again. From

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather


Not one particle of morality either. (me)
​

 

[Sabertooth]

Tell me, do you agree with all other Christians in regard to morals?

Not yet. John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 John 3:2-3
(According to those three verses, Christianity --and its accompanying morality-- is convergent.)

 

[Bradskii]

Not yet.

So we have no idea who is correct.

 

[Sabertooth]

So we have no idea who is correct.

Not without being "connected," first.

Jesus said,
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again,

he cannot [even] see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 NKJV​

The "Kingdom of God" is the moral standard that you are asking about.
It is dynamic.

 

[Bradskii]

Not without being "connected," first.

Jesus said,
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again,

he cannot [even] see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 NKJV​

The "Kingdom of God" is the moral standard that you are asking about.
It is dynamic.

That doesn't help much. Of those who say that they are 'born again', how do we know which one is right?

 

[Sabertooth]

Of those who say that they are 'born again', how do we know which one is right?

I did say that the process is convergent.
That means we all don't start off in the same place.
If you have any sense of a need for Salvation, ask Jesus to reveal Himself in a way that is meaningful to you, and He will.

 

[Bradskii]

I did say that the process is convergent.
That means we all don't start off in the same place.

You said that it's convergent. I've accepted that. You say we don't always start in the same place. I'll accept that. You've said that one needs to be 'connected'. I've accepted that.

But if there is an objective answer to any given moral problem then I still want to know when we know someone has the correct answer to it. It's a complete waste of time saying that there are objective answers if we don't know who has them.

So how do we find out?

 

[VirOptimus]

Sorry, good people... Another angle on this topic.

I simply want to know where it is.

If its not an aspect of my own mental state or yours, then it must be out there somewhere, right? So.... where?

Indeed, and what is it made off? How do we interact with it?

 

[Sabertooth]

But if there is an objective answer to any given moral problem then I still want to know when we know someone has the correct answer to it.

Without Jesus, we may never do what is objectively moral, or realize when we have done so, except in the most basic of terms.
With Jesus, we will make similar errors, initially, but God gives the Holy Spirit to remake us into the image of His Son, in a sequence that He see fit.

That was promised in John 14:26, 1 Corinthians 13:12 & 1 John 3:2.

 

[Bradskii]

Without Jesus, we may never do what is objectively moral, or realize when we have done so, except in the most basic of terms.
With Jesus, we will make similar errors, initially, but God gives the Holy Spirit to remake us into the image of His Son, in a sequence that He see fit.

So who do we turn to to find out what is objectively moral? I keep asking but I get nothing like a straight answer. Now you say that we'll make mistakes in determining what is moral until God gives us the ability. But you know full well that many believers hold many different views as to what is morally acceptable and many of them will tell me that they are acting according to God's will.

And you have no way of telling me which one of them is right.

Do you want me to give you some examples and you can tell me which moral position is the correct one?

 

[Sabertooth]

So who do we turn to to find out what is objectively moral? I keep asking but I get nothing like a straight answer.

That is because finding (and aligning to) an objective moral standard --even if we somehow could-- won't fix our root problem of being born morally corrupt (and all of the violations that we have done so far, even if done in ignorance).

Paul wrote that God did not give us the Law as a means of Salvation, but rather as a "plumb line" to reveal just how crooked we are.

"Therefore the law was our school master to bring us to Christ,

that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24 NKJV​

 

[Bradskii]

That is because finding (and aligning to) an objective moral standard --even if we somehow could--

You've already explained that we can't. Which makes nonsense of the suggestion that it even exists.

 

[Sabertooth]

Which makes nonsense of the suggestion that it even exists.

That is not a foregone conclusion.