where is the limit judging other?

yeshuaslavejeff

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Yeshua, NO Christian should think we should EVER sin for ANY reason. That IS the truth.

If you don't believe me, read Exodus 20.
So ? We do not sin today because we "SHOULD". I don't think ANYONE said we "SHOULD" sin.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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excerpt from some Bible smugglers information/site >

"
The following contrasts are presented to illustrate the gap between historical reality and uninformed judgements.

What About Bible “SMUGGLING”?
When the mother of Moses was lovingly hiding her baby in the basket (Exodus 2), one of her church officials knocked on her door and convinced her that her act was “illegal.” Realizing her sin, she surrendered Moses to the authorities. He was killed and the Jews remained in slavery.

When Joseph and Mary, the mother of Jesus, were sneaking Him out of Bethlehem at night (Matthew 2), their friends, representing various religious institutions, reminded them that King Herod would be displeased by their illegal act. They surrendered Jesus. He was murdered with the rest of the children. The angel who had warned and instructed them was informed upon by some irate seminary professors and was tried in absentia and given a five-year prison sentence.

During two Godly authorized jailbreaks (Acts 5 and 12), the Apostle Peter told surprised angels that he must respect the authorities and return to jail. The Christians praying with Rhoda never learned of his miraculous release. When the jailer took the Apostle Paul into his home after the earthquake (Acts 16), Paul told him that God had made a mistake and they must return to the jailhouse.

When Paul was being lowered in the basket over the wall (Acts 9), one of the men above had second thoughts and grabbing the rope said, “Wait a minute fellas, are you sure this is legal? Didn’t Paul want us to give the authorities our spiritual rights, too?” Paul didn’t get a chance to answer. When the basket jerked to a stop, he had fallen out and broken his neck.

The first few centuries of Christians were very embarrassed that they were called atheists for not worshipping Caesar. They listened to some theological experts who unrestrictedly embraced a few Bible passages about government authority. They turned in their lists of members, gave up their secret (scroll copying) print shops, revealed the addresses of their catacomb meetings and stopped smuggling Bible texts out of respect to the emperor who claimed to be God. In a few months Christianity ceased to exist.

The above illustrations may sound ridiculous or even blasphemous. They are not meant to be. They are based on prevalent attitudes among some Christian circles today about secret Christian work.

Isn't that Illegal?
I recently gave some high school students a tour of our building describing our work and our five main goals. One of them kindly asked, “Isn’t that Illegal?” A representative of one of the largest Bible printing agencies tells an inquirer at a church service that smuggling Bibles to China is “illegal”. China is a nation that everyone admits will never have enough Bibles, where there is an estimated 20,000 conversions to Christ per day, a nation where pastors are still beaten and some vomit blood. (Ask us for the China Report.) Giving the Word of God is illegal? We seem to have forgotten that God is legal. Satan is illegal.

A seminary professor in India told all of his students that Christians in prison in Cuba deserve to stay in jail (for distributing Christian literature) because they “broke Cuban law.” Many Christians know little about the survival techniques of two thousand years of Christianity under conflict. Some patently reject persecuted Christians as not the “right kind” from their own denomination. Others have the luxury of relatively comfortable, non-confrontational positions and over generations have fallen victim to religiously compartmentalizing their thinking and living in a theologically “perfect world”, refraining from facing the fact that each Christian is called to be a “partaker of Christ’s sufferings” (I Peter 4:12)."
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yeshua, if you say there is a reason to sin, you are saying we should sin. Were you not telling me there is a reason it is wrong tell the truth despite God's command to do so?
The sin is in twisting your own words to try to convince yourself or others about something you posted that was incorrect.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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We all know lying is a sin. Therefore, lying for ANY reason is a sin. To God, it is on the same level as adultery, murder, theft, and creating idols.
As noted already in many posts on this forum, and one or more on this thread,
this is not correct.
See also the Bible smugglers excerpt, the Scripture as related, etc ....
 
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Bruce Leiter

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to say the truth about something bad is not to judge.
million examples
Judging others is not noticing and discerning that someone's actions are wrong in order to avoid them yourself. It is condemning them in anyway by thinking you're better than that person. Read Revelation 22:11, Jesus' words delivered to John through an angel. If we ever spread negative stories about others, we in a sense are judging them. As Matthew 18 declares, we need to go to them and share with them our concern in love. The rest of the process is there, ending it up with the church leaders. Gossip about people is a result of our judging others.
 
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SkyWriting

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Judgment becomes excessive when you say something like "I believe you are wrong about (****) and you are going to hell." Here you are appropriating to yourself a judgment that belongs to God alone.
Right. But "excessive" is not an issue.
The issue is knowing somebody's heart before you judge them.
 
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SkyWriting

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Right. But "excessive" is not an issue.
Judging others is not noticing and discerning that someone's actions are wrong in order to avoid them yourself. It is condemning them in anyway by thinking you're better than that person. Read Revelation 22:11, Jesus' words delivered to John through an angel. If we ever spread negative stories about others, we in a sense are judging them. As Matthew 18 declares, we need to go to them and share with them our concern in love. The rest of the process is there, ending it up with the church leaders. Gossip about people is a result of our judging others.

Judging others is holding them to a standard that you would not want others
to consider when they are judging you based on your outward appearances.

But if you know somebody's entire life, then you know their heart, so you are good.
 
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SkyWriting

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I don't agree. The passage you cite is in reference to hypocritical judgment. Believers can overcome grievous sin. They are supposed to do so as a part of God's grace (See: Titus 2:11-12). Also see 2 Corinthians 7:1.

Believers can request forgiveness of for even tiny sins as well.
Else death.
 
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SkyWriting

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Believers can request forgiveness of for even tiny sins as well.
Else death.

The Bible uses the term grievous sin.
I believe a grievous sin is any sin that leads to spiritual death. The breaking of the Moral Law (Like: Do not murder, do not lie, do not covet, etc.) is clearly described in the Bible as leading unto death. The Bible also mentions a sin that does not lead unto death (1 John 5:17). Paul refuses to heed the warnings of the Spirit on not going to Jerusalem and he was not condemned for doing so. There are other examples, as well.
 
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SkyWriting

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The Bible uses the term grievous sin.
I believe a grievous sin is any sin that leads to spiritual death. The breaking of the Moral Law (Like: Do not murder, do not lie, do not covet, etc.) is clearly described in the Bible as leading unto death. The Bible also mentions a sin that does not lead unto death (1 John 5:17). Paul refuses to heed the warnings of the Spirit on not going to Jerusalem and he was not condemned for doing so. There are other examples, as well.
There is only one sin that does lead to death, and that one sin
is not accepting forgiveness for your sins from God.

But the wages of every other sin, is death.
There are no minor or major sins.
There is accepting forgiveness for a less than perfect life, and not accepting.
Believing God is not gracious enough, or important enough, or big enough to
be able to forgive your "big deal" sins.....that is blasphemy against the Spirit.

1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Matthew 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
 
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SkyWriting

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The Bible uses the term grievous sin.
I believe a grievous sin is any sin that leads to spiritual death.

Not thinking God will forgive, is the one sin that leads to death.
The rest do not have to.
 
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There is only one sin that does lead to death, and that one sin
is not accepting forgiveness for your sins from God.

But the wages of every other sin, is death.
There are no minor or major sins.
There is accepting forgiveness for a less than perfect life, and not accepting.
Believing God is not gracious enough, or important enough, or big enough to
be able to forgive your "big deal" sins.....that is blasphemy against the Spirit.

No. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost because it is compared to how one can be forgiven if one speaks bad words against the Son of Man (Jesus) in Matthew 12:31-32. That is what the text plainly says.

31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32).​

Please take note of verse 32 above. It says whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man it shall be forgiven him. This is the contrast with the blasphemy (or speaking bad words) against the Holy Ghost in verse 31. You know how people curse the name of Jesus? This is what it is talking about in reference to the Holy Ghost by way of contrast. But when I talk with OSAS proponents, they believe Matthew 12:31-32 says something other than what the text normally says. For anyone reading the text normally is not going to come away with such an odd interpretation unless they have been told that by an OSAS teacher.

You also say there are no minor sins or major sins:

The Bible teaches that there are...

full


You said:
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

So what exactly is the sin not leading unto death?
I believe it is sin that is honestly confessed to the Lord Jesus Christ with a godly sorrow and with the intention that they will seek to overcome such a sin.

What exactly is the "life" that the other believers are giving to this believer who is committing a sin not unto death?
I believe the word "life" is synonymous with the word "victory."
What is happening here is that a believer is struggling in trying to overcome a particular grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) is confessing their sin to the Lord Jesus Christ (to maintain their forgiveness) and the other brethren are trying to help this brother by praying for him to have victory or life in overcoming this sin. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14).

The sin unto death would be unconfessed sin that is done willfully (i.e. intentionally with no real remorse or desire in becoming holy or living for the Lord).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

You said:
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Right, 1 John 1:9 plays a part in 1 John 5:16-17 with the believer who is struggling with trying to overcome a certain sin. They can be cleansed of all unrighteousness by confessing their sin. But other believers are praying for this struggling believer in 1 John 5 so that they may have life or victory over their sin.

But 1 John 1:9 makes very little sense in the OSAS worldview. OSAS proponents believe future sin is forgiven them. But if such is the case, then there would be no need to ever confess of sin to be forgiven of sin if all your future sin was paid for.

You said:
1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:8 gets misquoted out of context a lot.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at a related verse nearby. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). For we both agree on 1 John 1:10 that we have sinned as a part of our past life. So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

You said:
Matthew 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Again, I highlighted the words in the Bible for you here that show that it is speaking bad words against as the frame of the context here. It is not talking about rejecting the Lord in this life as many OSAS proponents falsely assert (with no evidence in Scripture).

You said:
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Odd, you are using the very verse that helps to explain 1 John 5:16-17 but I do not think you understand it the same way I do here. What exactly does this verse mean from your perspective? I believe Hebrews 10:26 is referring to a person who already has knowledge of the truth of God's Word and they keep on sinning deliberately anyways. I do not believe it is talking about the imaginary OSAS version of the blasphemy of the Spirit here that refers to rejecting the Lord. A person who rejects the Lord has not received the knowledge of the truth; Or do you have some other interpretation on this verse? If so, please explain.

You said:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Right, Jesus Christ is the gift. We have to abide in Christ to have life. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son, has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life. Jesus talks about how we need to abide in the vine (Him) in John 15. The branch (believer) who does not abide in Him is cut off and thrown into the fire. The fire is the Lake of Fire. We can be cut off if we do not continue in his goodness. This is what Romans 11:21-22 says.

So Romans 6:23 is true. The wages of sin is still death. God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. But the OSAS version of God's grace teaches something different. It says you cannot lose salvation even if you sin. So this encourages one to minimize the consequences of sin (Which is death, i.e. spiritual death).

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Again, I am highlighting the words to show you what this verse is really saying. Again, an example of a person who speaks a word against the Son of Man is when a person curses the name of Jesus. We see it happen all the time with unbelievers. So this is the context or contrast of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
 
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This could help: consider whether you yourself are authorized to judge souls. (one can learn the answer to that by reading through the gospels, where we learn Who is authorized to be the Judge on the day to come).

Possibly the misunderstood thing might be it's not yet clear that I've used the phrase "judge people" as totally unalike to judging a person's actions. So...since I'm saying we can rightfully judge a person's actions....then when I say we cannot judge a person, what precisely did I mean???

For example, someone might better respond to me: "What do you mean when you say we can judge a person's actions, but should not judge a person? That sounds like a contradiction."

And then I'd know I'd not written in a clear enough way, and it needs a longer explanation, to help them get the difference I'm pointing at.

We can know a tree by its fruit -- that's "judging actions/words/deeds".

We are not the only authorized Judge of souls though. Whole different thing.

Notice this specific use of the word 'condemn' -- that's what it means to judge a person (as a soul). Those who judge persons as persons, as souls, will themselves be condemned, just as they have condemned others (unless they confess and repent to the Lord! and show that is real repentance by ceasing to do it further):

Luke 6:37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

So, none of us is ever authorized to judge others' souls, to condemn them. We can though carefully judge actions.

Perhaps I should append this clarification to post #13, do you think?

Not true. Plenty of godly men in Scripture had judged other men and they were not condemned for doing so. Jonah preached condemnation upon the city of Nineveh. Paul rebuked Peter. Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer and told him to repent or seek forgiveness and pray that his sin of trying to pay for the Holy Spirit would be forgiven him. Paul told the Corinthians to kick out that man who was fornicating in the church. Paul judged this man and told them not to keep company with any brother who is a fornicator, etc.

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11).

Paul judged the salvation of certain Galatians and said to those who seek to be justified by the Law have fallen from grace. This would be the Old Law or the 613 Laws within the Law of Moses as a whole or contract. For Paul was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism," (Which was a false belief that said that you had to first be circumcised in order to be saved). Please see: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21. In fact, to see this heresy explained clearly in detail, please see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.


Side Note:

So what did Jesus mean by not condemning others?
I believe He was referring to how we do not tell people that they are beyond any hope of forgiveness. That they are forever condemned for merely committing regular sins and or not believing in Jesus. The problem with folks doing this is that we do not know if they will repent and accept Christ and live righteously for Him before they die.

I see a lot of people bad mouthing the president. Well, first, this is a violation of Acts of the Apostles 23:5. Second, while I may not silently agree with his actions, I do not consider him beyond hope of forgiveness that Jesus can change his life for the better (even though others do not agree with me on this).

But surely correction of believers is a biblical concept (See 2 Timothy 3:16), and not having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them is true, as well (See: Ephesians 5:11).
 
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John 7:24 teaches us to judge with righteous judgment. That means we have to judge against the light of scripture. So when we see someone committing adultery we are free to judge them against the light of scripture, for they obviously are committing a sin.

We do need to be careful that we aren't judging people for issues that scripture is silent on. Liberty of conscience is important. I find believers are particularly harsh with one another over what amounts to personal preferences. The fact that someone doesn't share the same personal preferences as you is not indicative of sin in their lives.
are not preferences
 
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Judgment becomes excessive when you say something like "I believe you are wrong about (****) and you are going to hell." Here you are appropriating to yourself a judgment that belongs to God alone.
why
 
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