Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, you’re making up stuff. I’ve gone over the GM. They were all unbelievers left behind after the pre-Trib rapture. The 144k, protected by God, started the greatest revival, saving a multitude.

“Those who dwell on the earth” in the Trib, are all unbelievers. Rev 11:10 is a great example of “those who dwell on the earth” during the Trib. All are proven to be unbelievers.

You agreed that “you” in Rev 3:10 will be kept from the Trib. Rev 3:10 is not fulfilled. “You” will be today’s living Christians, should the pre-Trib rapture happen today.

You can't have it both ways, either there are no Christians during the tribulation or there are a great multitude who come out of it. Which is it?
If the 144,000 are being "kept from the hour of trial by sealing them, where'd you get the idea that the Church in Philadelphia couldn't be kept in the same way?
It is your eschatology that is made up. For instance, the "you" as I've repeated over and over in Rev 3:10 are those in the Church in Philadelphia who have kept(past tense). If "you" is Christians generally, then why can't you highlight where it says that instead of just declaring it? Where's your proof from scripture? If the Holy Spirit wanted to refer to the distant future, don't you think He would use the correct grammar instead of what He said? There is just not one verse that literally points to the distant future as a fulfillment of scripture in the new testament. Every thing Christ and the Apostles said, pointed to "this generation" of the first century when Christ came in the last times. Rev alone uses these present tense terms: "must soon take place"2 times, "the time is near"2 times, "about to"13 times, "I am coming soon" 4 times. If God came down and said those things to you, would you believe Him? I guess not.

Here's what is said to the Church in Philadelphia. "You" is the personal pronoun with "Church in Philadelphia" as the antecedent noun it agrees with. The same with the rest of the "you's" in the letter. Whereas, at verse 12, he now uses the indefinite(generic) pronoun "one" because He has made the same promise to all seven churches.

7“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
8“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You can't have it both ways, either there are no Christians during the tribulation or there are a great multitude who come out of it. Which is it?
If the 144,000 are being "kept from the hour of trial by sealing them, where'd you get the idea that the Church in Philadelphia couldn't be kept in the same way?
It is your eschatology that is made up. For instance, the "you" as I've repeated over and over in Rev 3:10 are those in the Church in Philadelphia who have kept(past tense). If "you" is Christians generally, then why can't you highlight where it says that instead of just declaring it? Where's your proof from scripture? If the Holy Spirit wanted to refer to the distant future, don't you think He would use the correct grammar instead of what He said? There is just not one verse that literally points to the distant future as a fulfillment of scripture in the new testament. Every thing Christ and the Apostles said, pointed to "this generation" of the first century when Christ came in the last times. Rev alone uses these present tense terms: "must soon take place"2 times, "the time is near"2 times, "about to"13 times, "I am coming soon" 4 times. If God came down and said those things to you, would you believe Him? I guess not.

Here's what is said to the Church in Philadelphia. "You" is the personal pronoun with "Church in Philadelphia" as the antecedent noun it agrees with. The same with the rest of the "you's" in the letter. Whereas, at verse 12, he now uses the indefinite(generic) pronoun "one" because He has made the same promise to all seven churches.

7“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
8“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Hello, Ed. I hope all is well with you.

If you would study Rev 6:15-17, it cites “everyone” who is dwelling on the earth. They are all gathered. Again, everyone on the earth is present. There isn’t one person who behaves like a Christian. All those folks run away to desperately hide themselves after an alleged sighting of Jesus. That is the representative behavior of everyone on the earth. All behave as the complete opposite of a believer.

If Jesus was sighted, and we Christians were present, we would be ecstatic and would run TO Jesus. We would be so ecstatic at the chance to see Him and to show our love and worship. What Rev 6:15-17 prove is there are no believers who enter the Trib. The 144k and the 2W (Two Witnesses) are assigned by God for specific roles within the Trib. They are protected servants of God.

Rev 9:4-6 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

Who will have the seal of God on their foreheads during the Trib? The answer is in Rev 7:3-4 (ESV): saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

The 144k operate in the Trib to facilitate the greatest revival to ever occur. They help convert a great multitude (“GM”) of new believers. Rev 7:16 proves that the GM were formerly unbelievers because they were all subjected to God’s judgmental wrath in the Trib. The two examples in Rev 7:16 are famine and scorching heat: Rev 6:8 (“famine”) and Rev 16:8 (“to scorch people”).

The GM are all killed as martyrs, as new converts in the Trib. They’re killed for giving testimony of Jesus Christ. All folks who give testimony of Jesus Christ during the Trib, are killed as martyrs and they become the GM.

The first group of martyrs are from the early seals. Those martyrs are found under the altar in Rev 6:9. Their “fellow servants” in Rev 6:11 are the second group of martyrs. They are found in Rev 20:4. All of the GM are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. All of the GM then appear in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17, praising God for their salvation and removal from the Trib.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Hello, Ed. I hope all is well with you.

If you would study Rev 6:15-17, it cites “everyone” who is dwelling on the earth. They are all gathered. Again, everyone on the earth is present. There isn’t one person who behaves like a Christian. All those folks run away to desperately hide themselves after an alleged sighting of Jesus. That is the representative behavior of everyone on the earth. All behave as the complete opposite of a believer.

If Jesus was sighted, and we Christians were present, we would be ecstatic and would run TO Jesus. We would be so ecstatic at the chance to see Him and to show our love and worship. What Rev 6:15-17 prove is there are no believers who enter the Trib. The 144k and the 2W (Two Witnesses) are assigned by God for specific roles within the Trib. They are protected servants of God.

Rev 9:4-6 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

Who will have the seal of God on their foreheads during the Trib? The answer is in Rev 7:3-4 (ESV): saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

The 144k operate in the Trib to facilitate the greatest revival to ever occur. They help convert a great multitude (“GM”) of new believers. Rev 7:16 proves that the GM were formerly unbelievers because they were all subjected to God’s judgmental wrath in the Trib. The two examples in Rev 7:16 are famine and scorching heat: Rev 6:8 (“famine”) and Rev 16:8 (“to scorch people”).

The GM are all killed as martyrs, as new converts in the Trib. They’re killed for giving testimony of Jesus Christ. All folks who give testimony of Jesus Christ during the Trib, are killed as martyrs and they become the GM.

The first group of martyrs are from the early seals. Those martyrs are found under the altar in Rev 6:9. Their “fellow servants” in Rev 6:11 are the second group of martyrs. They are found in Rev 20:4. All of the GM are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. All of the GM then appear in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17, praising God for their salvation and removal from the Trib.

There are no more tribes of Israel, there is no more keeping of the law and the last thing said about them was that they were a "synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews but are liars". Israel was made a complete desolation in 70ad by the Romans who burned their city to the ground as prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 22 who made it clear that when that happened the wedding would be ready.
The apostles showed us who the firstfruits were, they were the firstfruits of the wheat harvest sealed with the Holy Spirit starting at Pentecost. The thousands of Jews pointed out Acts 21:20And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,... The word used is myriads, which means 10's of thousands, like maybe 144,000 stated symbolically ie 12x12x1000

The New Jerusalem which is the consummated church in Rev 21 is the size in square miles of the "whole earth" of the first century ie the Roman empire. The church of today is the size of the whole earth of the 21st century.

That phrase, "all who dwell on the earth", already has a meaning going back to the old covenant. It is like those who are in the world but not of the world where our citizenship is heaven seated with Him in heavenly places. It's a spiritual separation, not a physical separation. Here in Luke, we are already told the believers would be there and were told to pray for strength to escape it. Why would you need strength to escape it, if God is going to snatch you out of it? And why would you watch for something you can't see coming? There's nothing to watch for.
Luke 21:34“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
When in Revelation do we see them standing before the Son of Man? Rev 7:
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There are no more tribes of Israel, there is no more keeping of the law and the last thing said about them was that they were a "synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews but are liars". Israel was made a complete desolation in 70ad by the Romans who burned their city to the ground as prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 22 who made it clear that when that happened the wedding would be ready.
The apostles showed us who the firstfruits were, they were the firstfruits of the wheat harvest sealed with the Holy Spirit starting at Pentecost. The thousands of Jews pointed out Acts 21:20And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,... The word used is myriads, which means 10's of thousands, like maybe 144,000 stated symbolically ie 12x12x1000

The New Jerusalem which is the consummated church in Rev 21 is the size in square miles of the "whole earth" of the first century ie the Roman empire. The church of today is the size of the whole earth of the 21st century.

That phrase, "all who dwell on the earth", already has a meaning going back to the old covenant. It is like those who are in the world but not of the world where our citizenship is heaven seated with Him in heavenly places. It's a spiritual separation, not a physical separation. Here in Luke, we are already told the believers would be there and were told to pray for strength to escape it. Why would you need strength to escape it, if God is going to snatch you out of it? And why would you watch for something you can't see coming? There's nothing to watch for.
Luke 21:34“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
When in Revelation do we see them standing before the Son of Man? Rev 7:
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.

Rev 7:4 (ESV); And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

I trust God to know among the current “sons of Israel,” who will be the correct offspring to fulfill Rev 7:4-8.

The Trib will unfold as written. The 144k will facilitate the greatest revival. All of the GM are proven to have entered the Trib as unbelievers, per Rev 7:16. They end up in Heaven in Rev 7:9. There will be a revival of epic proportions in the Trib.

In the context of the Trib, “those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers: Rev 6:10 and Rev 11:10 are two examples.

Where are the believers in Rev 9:4-6? Rev 9:4-6 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 7:4 (ESV); And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

I trust God to know among the current “sons of Israel,” who will be the correct offspring to fulfill Rev 7:4-8.

The Trib will unfold as written. The 144k will facilitate the greatest revival. All of the GM are proven to have entered the Trib as unbelievers, per Rev 7:16. They end up in Heaven in Rev 7:9. There will be a revival of epic proportions in the Trib.

In the context of the Trib, “those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers: Rev 6:10 and Rev 11:10 are two examples.

Where are the believers in Rev 9:4-6? Rev 9:4-6 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

We are the current sons of Israel, the "Israel of God" as we became fellow citizens with the elect of Israel. The rest were "utterly destroyed from the people of God", with the Jerusalem of that day being cast out like Hagar's son Galatians 4. They had no more inheritance. That's why Jesus took the kingdom away from them and gave it to the nation bearing the fruit of it.
1 Peter 2:9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
You're trusting God to believe what you believe, but that's not what He teaches about them. Because you're then inadvertently teaching that no one has yet been redeemed, not the apostles, not those called firstfruits or anyone else. You're waiting until those Rev Jews have been redeemed as "firstfruits", while at the same time claiming a resurrection and rapture of the unredeemed.
Rev 14:9It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
2 Corinthians 11:2
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.


As to your question re Rev9
The same thing happened in Ezekiel's time when God's servant Nebuchadnezzar sent his armies to burn Jerusalem and the temple down the first time. The difference was in the execution of it. In Ezekiel's time, the believers were to surrender to Nebuchadnezzar's army and be taken captive, ie Daniel. In Roman times, Jesus gave them a way to escape. (Mark 13:14–23; Luke 21:20–24 Matthew 24:15–25)

– Eusebius, History of the Church 3, 5
“The whole body, however, of the Church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his Apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth.

Ezekiel 9:4-6
“Go throughout the city of Jerusalem,” said the LORD, “and put a mark on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” / And as I listened, He said to the others, “Follow him through the city and start killing; do not show pity or spare anyone! / Slaughter the old men, the young men and maidens, the women and children; but do not go near anyone who has the mark. Now begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We are the current sons of Israel, the "Israel of God" as we became fellow citizens with the elect of Israel. The rest were "utterly destroyed from the people of God", with the Jerusalem of that day being cast out like Hagar's son Galatians 4. They had no more inheritance. That's why Jesus took the kingdom away from them and gave it to the nation bearing the fruit of it.
1 Peter 2:9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
You're trusting God to believe what you believe, but that's not what He teaches about them. Because you're then inadvertently teaching that no one has yet been redeemed, not the apostles, not those called firstfruits or anyone else. You're waiting until those Rev Jews have been redeemed as "firstfruits", while at the same time claiming a resurrection and rapture of the unredeemed.
Rev 14:9It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
2 Corinthians 11:2
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.


As to your question re Rev9
The same thing happened in Ezekiel's time when God's servant Nebuchadnezzar sent his armies to burn Jerusalem and the temple down the first time. The difference was in the execution of it. In Ezekiel's time, the believers were to surrender to Nebuchadnezzar's army and be taken captive, ie Daniel. In Roman times, Jesus gave them a way to escape. (Mark 13:14–23; Luke 21:20–24 Matthew 24:15–25)

– Eusebius, History of the Church 3, 5
“The whole body, however, of the Church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his Apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth.

Ezekiel 9:4-6
“Go throughout the city of Jerusalem,” said the LORD, “and put a mark on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” / And as I listened, He said to the others, “Follow him through the city and start killing; do not show pity or spare anyone! / Slaughter the old men, the young men and maidens, the women and children; but do not go near anyone who has the mark. Now begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.

1 Peter 2:9 is addressed to Jews. Read it carefully, please. 1 Peter 2:9 (ESV): But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

To be one of the 144k, you have to be a virgin male Jew, and direct offspring of the original "sons of Israel." I would LOVE to be one of the 144k. It ain't happening.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

1 Peter 2:9 is addressed to Jews. Read it carefully, please. 1 Peter 2:9 (ESV): But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

To be one of the 144k, you have to be a virgin male Jew, and direct offspring of the original "sons of Israel." I would LOVE to be one of the 144k. It ain't happening.

We are all one body in Christ and therefore are all 'chosen" and made into a "holy nation.

Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love

Rev 1:4John to the seven churches that are in Asia:.. 5..To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile,
Galatians 3:26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29Now if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 2:11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We are all one body in Christ and therefore are all 'chosen" and made into a "holy nation.

Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love

Rev 1:4John to the seven churches that are in Asia:.. 5..To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile,
Galatians 3:26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29Now if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 2:11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

You are your fellow Preterist, Keras, do the same things: quote verses that are unrelated to our discussion. Our discussion is about Rev 7:3-8. I accept what is said in those verses, and that the 144k will come from the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel.

Tha 144k will therefore be Jews, and they must be male virgins.

 

[keras]

You are your fellow Preterist, Keras, do the same things: quote verses that are unrelated to our discussion. Our discussion is about Rev 7:3-8. I accept what is said in those verses, and that the 144k will come from the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel.

Tha 144k will therefore be Jews, and they must be male virgins.

Pretentious rubbish and rude accusations.

The great multitude and the 144,000:
Much controversy surrounds them. Who are they and what do they do?

Revelation 7:1-8 sets an earthly scene and says that 12,000 will come from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This is immediately followed by verses 9-14, telling about a huge crowd of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who have just passed through a great ordeal.

This ordeal logically and surely refers to the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will destroy the attackers of Israel, as well as the ungodly Israelis. Many prophesies tell us that all of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed at that time, in preparation for the establishment of a righteous nation there. Isaiah 62:1-5
A people who will be God’s witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Revelation 14:1-5 also tells us about the 144,000. The Lord stands on Mt Zion and they are with Him. John then sees a flying angel, who is loudly proclaiming the Gospel throughout the earth.

We know that Bible prophecy is a little here, a little there, so to gain more understanding on this subject, we look at Isaiah 66:15-17, where it says the Lord will judge with fire and many will be killed by Him. Zephaniah 1:14-18….the Land devastated and depopulated..
After that, He will gather His people, as many prophesies clearly state; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 23:3-4, +

Isaiah 66:18b-21 They are people from every nation, coming on every means of transport, a huge number of people, Jeremiah 31:8-9, some of whom, God will put a sign on and will send to the nations to proclaim His Glory . The 144,000

From these and other Bible prophesies, we are told that the Lord will correct the current situation of having ungodly people in His holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 says He will uproot all of them and it will be only the righteous believers who will live there. Psalms 37:9-29, Isaiah 35, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Therefore, the sequence is: a soon to happen Day of disaster for the world and all who stood firm in their faith and called out to the Lord for His protection, will go to live in all of the holy Land. There: soon after the fiery Judgement, the Lord will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:4b-10 exactly states.

He will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and all the people will be divided into 12 groups according to their family characteristics. From each of them, He will select 12,000 young men, who will go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. The ‘angel’ of Revelation 14:6-7 is symbolic for them and Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor.

There will be more trials and testing for those people, as prophesied, but it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Pretentious rubbish and rude accusations.

The great multitude and the 144,000:
Much controversy surrounds them. Who are they and what do they do?

Revelation 7:1-8 sets an earthly scene and says that 12,000 will come from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This is immediately followed by verses 9-14, telling about a huge crowd of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who have just passed through a great ordeal.

This ordeal logically and surely refers to the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will destroy the attackers of Israel, as well as the ungodly Israelis. Many prophesies tell us that all of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed at that time, in preparation for the establishment of a righteous nation there. Isaiah 62:1-5
A people who will be God’s witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Revelation 14:1-5 also tells us about the 144,000. The Lord stands on Mt Zion and they are with Him. John then sees a flying angel, who is loudly proclaiming the Gospel throughout the earth.

We know that Bible prophecy is a little here, a little there, so to gain more understanding on this subject, we look at Isaiah 66:15-17, where it says the Lord will judge with fire and many will be killed by Him. Zephaniah 1:14-18….the Land devastated and depopulated..
After that, He will gather His people, as many prophesies clearly state; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 23:3-4, +

Isaiah 66:18b-21 They are people from every nation, coming on every means of transport, a huge number of people, Jeremiah 31:8-9, some of whom, God will put a sign on and will send to the nations to proclaim His Glory . The 144,000

From these and other Bible prophesies, we are told that the Lord will correct the current situation of having ungodly people in His holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 says He will uproot all of them and it will be only the righteous believers who will live there. Psalms 37:9-29, Isaiah 35, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Therefore, the sequence is: a soon to happen Day of disaster for the world and all who stood firm in their faith and called out to the nation Lord for His protection, will go to live in all of the holy Land. There: soon after the fiery Judgement, the Lord will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:4b-10 exactly states.

He will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and all the people will be divided into 12 groups according to their family characteristics. From each of them, He will select 12,000 young men, who will go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. The ‘angel’ of Revelation 14:6-7 is symbolic for them and Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor.

There will be more trials and testing for those people, as prophesied, but it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign.

Keras, you are falsely proclaiming there is an unspecified disaster in the 6th seal. There is no such thing in the 6th seal. It’s about every unbeliever on Earth gathered to witness incredible solar, lunar and environmental phenomena. The purpose is to prove that God exists and is all-powerful.

You are missing the purposes of the Trib: repent or be eternally condemned. Those propositions are necessary for unbelievers, only.

The 144k are evangelical ministers who effect the greatest revival of all time. Rev 7:1-8 occur before the 4th seal and Rev 7:9-17 occur after the 4th bowl. This is proven by the martyrs in the 5th seal and the specific phenomena that only occurs in the 4th bowl, in strict adherence to Rev 7:16.

You will deny the facts above, so I will not bother to elaborate. You’ve seen it all before from me, and you just ignore it.

Show me the believers in the 2nd seal in a “kill or be killed” worldwide environment.

Show me the believers in Rev 9:4-6.

Again, show me the believers in Rev 6:15-17. You can’t because Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[keras]

Keras, you are falsely proclaiming there is an unspecified disaster in the 6th seal

JB, you are falsely saying the Sixth Seal is a non-event.

An Explanation of the Sixth Seal:
Revelation 6:12-17;
I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes by tectonic plate movement. Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

The sun turned black as a funeral pall – Acts 2:20 The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

The moon became a red as blood – Joel 2:31 The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermoluminescent reaction with the metallic oxides of the moon dust. As well as: the bright red reflection of the initial flash. Isaiah 30:26a

The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth, this is a known effect of the pressure wave of a CME. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated hydrogen plasma. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also may cause a magnetic pole reversal.

Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME will take 24 - 36 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.

This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalms 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

JB, you are falsely saying the Sixth Seal is a non-event.

An Explanation of the Sixth Seal:
Revelation 6:12-17;
I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes by tectonic plate movement. Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

The sun turned black as a funeral pall – Acts 2:20 The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

The moon became a red as blood – Joel 2:31 The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermoluminescent reaction with the metallic oxides of the moon dust. As well as: the bright red reflection of the initial flash. Isaiah 30:26a

The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth, this is a known effect of the pressure wave of a CME. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated hydrogen plasma. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also may cause a magnetic pole reversal.

Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME will take 24 - 36 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.

This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalms 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.

Keras, during the Trib, what would attract ALL who dwell on the earth to show up for?

Would it be a chance to see a 6th seal disaster?

Or, would it be an event where God will prove He exists and with unlimited powers?

Rev 6:12-17 (ESV): When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Verses 12–14 are about a great earthquake and solar, lunar and heavenly phenomena. This phenomena occurs, and then verses 15—17 occur. Those verses prove you are adding to them. You have added data that does not relate to the 6th seal. There is no disaster in the 6th seal.

The 6th seal serves as a tremendous display of God’s incredible powers. They prove He exists and that He is all-powerful. All that is meant to overcome all false notions about the nonexistence of God and His lack of unlimited powers. The 6th seal is an invitation to the most hardcore unbelievers to repent and to believe in Jesus as their Savior.

 

[keras]

Or, would it be an event where God will prove He exists and with unlimited powers?

No; The Sixth Seal will be a natural event, one that we have had plenty of warning it could happen; suddenly and shocking everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:25-26
This will allow most people to carry on in their atheism and when a powerful and charismatic leader arises, they will be happy to worship him. Revelation 13:11-18

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No; The Sixth Seal will be a natural event, one that we have had plenty of warning it could happen; suddenly and shocking everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:25-26
This will allow most people to carry on in their atheism and when a powerful and charismatic leader arises, they will be happy to worship him. Revelation 13:11-18

Wrong. Luke 22:24 is about the midpoint. Verses 25-26 are about bowl judgments. The 6th seal is not about bowl judgements. Again, you are adding inapplicable data to the 6th seal.

There is no disastrous result in Rev 6:12-14. Keras, examine the behavior of “everyone” in Rev 6:15-17 that occurs AFTER your alleged disaster. Are they shocked? Nope! They are mocking Jesus concerning an alleged sighting of Him. What is their reaction? To run and HIDE from Jesus. That is behavior exclusive to unbelievers. Everyone on Earth participates in the same behavior. That’s proof of everyone on Earth being an unbeliever.

The worldwide disaster in the seal judgments occurs in Rev 6:8 when 25% of the world’s population is brutally killed in a matter of months. Who’s killed in the 6th seal?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No; The Sixth Seal will be a natural event, one that we have had plenty of warning it could happen; suddenly and shocking everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:25-26
This will allow most people to carry on in their atheism and when a powerful and charismatic leader arises, they will be happy to worship him. Revelation 13:11-18

There’s nothing natural about the any of the 21 judgments of God’s wrath. Every bit of those 21 judgments is completely controlled by God.

For instance, in Rev 9:1-6 (ESV) below, God controls the 5th trumpet being blown, a star falling, the opening of the bottomless pit, smoke rising from the bottomless pit, the sun and the being darkened, locusts are given powers to torment all who dwelled on the earth for five months, without killing anyone. The same control is exercised over all 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

Rev 9:1-6 (ESV): And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

 

[keras]

There’s nothing natural about the any of the 21 judgments of God’s wrath. Every bit of those 21 judgments is completely controlled by God.

God controls those natural events.
The next one to happen, will be the Sixth Seal, a huge Coronal Mass Ejection which will literally fulfil all the graphically stated Prophesies about the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
The world will never be the same again.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You are your fellow Preterist, Keras, do the same things: quote verses that are unrelated to our discussion. Our discussion is about Rev 7:3-8. I accept what is said in those verses, and that the 144k will come from the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel.

Tha 144k will therefore be Jews, and they must be male virgins.

So, you don't even know what you're writing? I responded to the only verse you put in your post--1Peter 2:9. There's only one gospel and all the apostles were preaching the same gospel so all scripture pertaining to the 144,000 firstfruits redeemed from mankind are, of course, valid. What isn't valid, is to recreate the Jewish nation that God utterly destroyed. That's why there aren't anymore tribes of Israel. And that especially the 12 tribes according to the law. And according to Jude, the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints---there's nothing more to be revealed. That's why futurists have a 100% track record of prophetic failure. That's not a good look for the Word of God with the world always watching.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

God controls those natural events.
The next one to happen, will be the Sixth Seal, a huge Coronal Mass Ejection which will literally fulfil all the graphically stated Prophesies about the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
The world will never be the same again.

Keras, the Trib is seven consecutive years long (Daniel 9:27). The Trib will begin with the 1st seal (Rev 6:1-2). Your claim that the first five seals have already been opened is false.

The 6th seal has no deaths or intended injuries. Stop and think then what it would be about, based on the words in its verses. What would attract the whole world of unbelievers to assemble like that? Nothing you state would do it. You have no case to support your wild claims.

Those folks gathered to see proof of God and His unlimited powers. They then freaked out at an alleged sighting of Jesus. They then ran to hide from Jesus. They thoroughly proved they are all unbelievers.

Show me the believers in the 6th seal.

Show me proof that the first five seals have already been opened.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So, you don't even know what you're writing? I responded to the only verse you put in your post--1Peter 2:9. There's only one gospel and all the apostles were preaching the same gospel so all scripture pertaining to the 144,000 firstfruits redeemed from mankind are, of course, valid. What isn't valid, is to recreate the Jewish nation that God utterly destroyed. That's why there aren't anymore tribes of Israel. And that especially the 12 tribes according to the law. And according to Jude, the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints---there's nothing more to be revealed. That's why futurists have a 100% track record of prophetic failure. That's not a good look for the Word of God with the world always watching.

Ed, the Trib will unfold as written. Rev 7 does not carry a disclaimer. That means Rev 7:1-8 will be fulfilled by God, in ways that only He can do.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

God controls those natural events.
The next one to happen, will be the Sixth Seal, a huge Coronal Mass Ejection which will literally fulfil all the graphically stated Prophesies about the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
The world will never be the same again.

No. Acts 1:11 proves the next prophecy to be fulfilled is Rev 4:1.