Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Ed Parenteau]

Daniel 9:27 (NIV): He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

One “seven” is seven consecutive years. Proof follows.

In Daniel 9:27, “He” is the AC who is front and center in the first seal (Rev 6:1-2). Upon this first revelation of the AC, a period of one “seven” begins (Daniel 9:27).

Rev 6-16 are summarized in Matt 24. Therefore, both references clarify each other.

In the “middle” of the one “seven” (Daniel 9:27), that same “abomination” is mentioned in Matt 24:15-16 (ESV): “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Daniel 9:27 says the “middle” of the “seven” is what occurs at Matt 24:15-16 because both references cite the same abomination.

This is what occurs in Rev shortly before the “middle” of the one “seven.” Rev 11:2-3 (ESV): but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Upon the abomination in Daniel 9:27 and Matt 24:15, pandemonium occurs. The holy city is trampled and inhabitants of Jerusalem flee.

Shortly before Matt 24:15, periods of 42 months and 1,260 days begin in Rev 11:2-3. Both equal 3.5 years. Those periods begin just before the “middle” of the one “seven.” (before Matt 24:15-16) of the Trib.

3.5 years of God’s wrath were just completed in the seven seals (Rev 6) and the seven trumpets (beginning in Rev 8). Next to occur are the 3.5 years of the bowl judgments.

Jesus explains the tremendously increased severity of the wrath of God in the second half of the 7-year Trib, in Matt 24:21-22 (ESV): For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Jesus was referring to the bowl judgments (Rev 16) that occur exclusively in the second 3.5 years of the Trib. We know this because the trumpet judgments end in Rev 11:15 (7th trumpet). That means the bowl judgments occur exclusively in the second 3.5 years.

The Trib is proven to be one “seven” being seven consecutive years with two distinctive halves of 3.5 years each. The “middle of the ‘seven’” (Daniel 9:27) is the abomination in Matt 24:15. Shortly before that “middle,” Rev 11:2-3 occur, beginning two consecutive periods of 3.5 years. The first half of the Trib (3.5 years) are the seal and trumpet judgments (the 7th trumpet ends at Rev 11:15). That means only the bowl judgments (“great tribulation” in Matt 24:21) occur in the second half for about 3.5 years.

None of that is clearly stated like when John reveals he is a "fellow partaker in THE TRIBULATION" Rev 1:9. Messiah the Prince is the Prince who is to come. No other prince is named or described. So, where is that antichrist covenant found in Revelation? I can't find it anywhere.

The book of Rev is recapitulatory and not consecutive as Babylon the great is fallen in both Rev chapters 14 and 18, therefore there's no consecutive time

Matthew 24:29 comes before this: Matthew24:33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
James, one of the apostles who had the authority to reveal when the time is near, makes it very clear that the time was near. He echoes what Jesus said above.
James 5:. 8You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

None of that is clearly stated like when John reveals he is a "fellow partaker in THE TRIBULATION" Rev 1:9. Messiah the Prince is the Prince who is to come. No other prince is named or described. So, where is that antichrist covenant found in Revelation? I can't find it anywhere.

The book of Rev is recapitulatory and not consecutive as Babylon the great is fallen in both Rev chapters 14 and 18, therefore there's no consecutive time

Matthew 24:29 comes before this: Matthew24:33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
James, one of the apostles who had the authority to reveal when the time is near, makes it very clear that the time was near. He echoes what Jesus said above.
James 5:. 8You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

The book of Rev is perfectly sequential in that all 21 judgments of God’s wrath occur in a set sequence. The Trib starts with the 1st seal being opened. After the 7th seal is opened, the 1st trumpet sounds. After the 7th trumpet sounds, the 1st bowl soon occurs.

When the 1st seal is opened, the Trib begins, and all hell breaks loose (1 Th 5:2-3). When the last bowl is poured, the Trib soon ends.

Rev 1:9’s tribulation is about the tribulation of everyday life of a disciple. It has nothing to do with the 7-year, perfectly sequential Trib.

 

[keras]

The book of Rev is recapitulatory and not consecutive as Babylon the great is fallen in both Rev chapters 14 and 18, therefore there's no consecutive time

But the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is.
They will occur in the sequence as Written and as the first five Seals were actioned by Jesus at His Ascension, the Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event we can expect.
It will be the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath and the world will never be the same again.

No doubt about it; The Judge is standing at the door!
What is coming will be our test of faith; 1 Peter 4:12. Be ready to stand firm in your faith and to call upon His Name for protection.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is.
They will occur in the sequence as Written and as the first five Seals were actioned by Jesus at His Ascension, the Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event we can expect.
It will be the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath and the world will never be the same again.

No doubt about it; The Judge is standing at the door!
What is coming will be our test of faith; 1 Peter 4:12. Be ready to stand firm in your faith and to call upon His Name for protection.

You are changing Scripture, as only Preterits would do (you and Keras).

The 21 judgments of God’s wrath in the 7-year Trib occur in sequence, within their assigned 7-year period. You can’t invalidate my writeup on the seven years of the Trib. It’s seven years long, and those seven years have not yet started.


The AC goes into action upon the 1st seal. There’s no AC — or any unbeliever — at the Ascension.

The Trib hasn’t started, so the 1st seal has not been opened.

I’m done in this topic.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is.
They will occur in the sequence as Written and as the first five Seals were actioned by Jesus at His Ascension, the Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event we can expect.
It will be the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath and the world will never be the same again.

No doubt about it; The Judge is standing at the door!
What is coming will be our test of faith; 1 Peter 4:12. Be ready to stand firm in your faith and to call upon His Name for protection.

What’s to test of a believer who’s forgiven of all sins?

Who are the believers in the early seals when Rev 6:15-17 prove there are no believers on Earth?

Jesus said in Rev 3:10 YOU will be kept from the hour of trial, “to try THOSE who dwell on the earth.”

“Those who dwell on the earth” is a phrase, in the context of the Trib, that only refers to unbelievers.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is.
They will occur in the sequence as Written and as the first five Seals were actioned by Jesus at His Ascension, the Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event we can expect.
It will be the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath and the world will never be the same again.

No doubt about it; The Judge is standing at the door!
What is coming will be our test of faith; 1 Peter 4:12. Be ready to stand firm in your faith and to call upon His Name for protection.

The next prophesied event is the pre-Trib rapture. In the ascension, Jesus ascended in the view of believers, only. He will next descend in 1 Th 4:16-17. He’ll descend from His throne as we are in the air of Heaven. He will descend to us.

Rev 3:10 proves “YOU will be kept from the hour of trial” — the 7-year Trib. Only unbelievers— “those who dwell on the earth” are tried in th trial of the 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

You can’t prove the first five seals have been opened. You can’t prove any believers enter the Trib. You can’t find any believers in the 6th seal because of what Jesus promised in Rev 3:10.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The great multitude (“GM”) are new converts in the Trib. The new converts in the Trib are martyrs. They are first found under the altar in Rev 6:9-10. They are told to wait for their “fellow servants” (Rev 6:11) to be killed as they were.

Those fellow servants are found, as martyrs in Rev 20:4. All of the GM are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They appear next in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

To prove that all of the GM were once unbelievers, Rev 7:16 proves they all were subjected to the wrath of God by way of famine (Rev 6:8) and scorching heat (Rev 16:8).

After their resurrection and arrival in Heaven, they praise God specifically for their salvation in Rev 7:10. They were once unbelievers subjected to God’s wrath in the Trib. Now, in Rev 7:10, they are praising God to the utmost for their salvation and removal from the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is.
They will occur in the sequence as Written and as the first five Seals were actioned by Jesus at His Ascension, the Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event we can expect.
It will be the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath and the world will never be the same again.

No doubt about it; The Judge is standing at the door!
What is coming will be our test of faith; 1 Peter 4:12. Be ready to stand firm in your faith and to call upon His Name for protection.

1 Peter 4 is solely about the daily trials and tribulation of being a disciple of Peter.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You are changing Scripture, as only Preterits would do (you and Keras).

The 21 judgments of God’s wrath in the 7-year Trib occur in sequence, within their assigned 7-year period. You can’t invalidate my writeup on the seven years of the Trib. It’s seven years long, and those seven years have not yet started.


The AC goes into action upon the 1st seal. There’s no AC — or any unbeliever — at the Ascension.

The Trib hasn’t started, so the 1st seal has not been opened.

I’m done in this topic.

You have a convoluted way of attempting to prove a seven year tribulation, but it just doesn't work. Daniel 12 proves it as well as proof that the resurrection comes after the great tribulation, not before. All of the clear and unmistakable scriptures tell us it will be 3-1/2 years in a variety of ways, and was proven by history. That's when the false high priest Phannias ben Samuel sat in the temple of God for 3-1/2 years when God sent the Roman armies to destroy Israel and burn down Jerusalem.
Matthew 227The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

There're a couple of "historical re-enactments of the War of the Jews on youtube that are interesting and informative to anyone who wishes to see what happened then during those 3-1/ years.

The 1600 stadia of bloodshed of Rev. 14:20 was Israel in the first century, modern Israel is 2400 stadia long. No one fights with horses anymore. I guess you can just say the bible evolves with the times, and change it to meet either modern or ancient warfare as the need arises to keep your eschatology intact. However, you can't that without taking away and adding to scripture. Futurists have no choice but to rewrite some of scripture in order to keep the bible up to date with their eschatology. So, when in chapter 9 it says an army of 200 million horsemen, and take it literally and not symbolically of an overwhelming force like the Romans had, you run into a problem of there being only 58 million horses in the whole world with the US having the most with 9.5 million, much less that many fighting horsemen plus the fact of the logistics of feeding that many men and horses.

In all the bible, only Israel was ever threatened with those judgements, and that would be for breaking the everlasting covenant only they had and broke. (Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 16)

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You have a convoluted way of attempting to prove a seven year tribulation, but it just doesn't work. Daniel 12 proves it as well as proof that the resurrection comes after the great tribulation, not before. All of the clear and unmistakable scriptures tell us it will be 3-1/2 years in a variety of ways, and was proven by history. That's when the false high priest Phannias ben Samuel sat in the temple of God for 3-1/2 years when God sent the Roman armies to destroy Israel and burn down Jerusalem.
Matthew 227The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

There're a couple of "historical re-enactments of the War of the Jews on youtube that are interesting and informative to anyone who wishes to see what happened then during those 3-1/ years.

The 1600 stadia of bloodshed of Rev. 14:20 was Israel in the first century, modern Israel is 2400 stadia long. No one fights with horses anymore. I guess you can just say the bible evolves with the times, and change it to meet either modern or ancient warfare as the need arises to keep your eschatology intact. However, you can't that without taking away and adding to scripture. Futurists have no choice but to rewrite some of scripture in order to keep the bible up to date with their eschatology. So, when in chapter 9 it says an army of 200 million horsemen, and take it literally and not symbolically of an overwhelming force like the Romans had, you run into a problem of there being only 58 million horses in the whole world with the US having the most with 9.5 million, much less that many fighting horsemen plus the fact of the logistics of feeding that many men and horses.

In all the bible, only Israel was ever threatened with those judgements, and that would be for breaking the everlasting covenant only they had and broke. (Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 16)

Read Dan 9:

You have a convoluted way of attempting to prove a seven year tribulation, but it just doesn't work. Daniel 12 proves it as well as proof that the resurrection comes after the great tribulation, not before. All of the clear and unmistakable scriptures tell us it will be 3-1/2 years in a variety of ways, and was proven by history. That's when the false high priest Phannias ben Samuel sat in the temple of God for 3-1/2 years when God sent the Roman armies to destroy Israel and burn down Jerusalem.
Matthew 227The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

There're a couple of "historical re-enactments of the War of the Jews on youtube that are interesting and informative to anyone who wishes to see what happened then during those 3-1/ years.

The 1600 stadia of bloodshed of Rev. 14:20 was Israel in the first century, modern Israel is 2400 stadia long. No one fights with horses anymore. I guess you can just say the bible evolves with the times, and change it to meet either modern or ancient warfare as the need arises to keep your eschatology intact. However, you can't that without taking away and adding to scripture. Futurists have no choice but to rewrite some of scripture in order to keep the bible up to date with their eschatology. So, when in chapter 9 it says an army of 200 million horsemen, and take it literally and not symbolically of an overwhelming force like the Romans had, you run into a problem of there being only 58 million horses in the whole world with the US having the most with 9.5 million, much less that many fighting horsemen plus the fact of the logistics of feeding that many men and horses.

In all the bible, only Israel was ever threatened with those judgements, and that would be for breaking the everlasting covenant only they had and broke. (Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 16)

What you call convoluted is a cop-out. You know it’s the truth that proves a 7-year Trib. You keep avoiding Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

A “week” in Daniel is seven years. Do your homework, please. A “half of the week” is 3.5 years. Do your homework, please. The Trib is seven years long, just as Daniel says (“one week”). He cites “one week” then “half of the week.” Then he mentions “abominations.” Daniel just summarized the first 3.5 years leading to the midpoint when abomination occurs (Matt 24:15). Then he cites “the decreed end” which is about the second half of the 7-year Trib when the bowl judgments are poured out and the AC goes to his destruction: Rev 19:20 (ESV): And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

But the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is.
They will occur in the sequence as Written and as the first five Seals were actioned by Jesus at His Ascension, the Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event we can expect.
It will be the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath and the world will never be the same again.

No doubt about it; The Judge is standing at the door!
What is coming will be our test of faith; 1 Peter 4:12. Be ready to stand firm in your faith and to call upon His Name for protection.

Jesus is referring to the signs that would lead up to the destruction of the temple, which is the whole premise of the Olivet discourse and James is claiming that they had seen all those signs then
Matthew 24:32Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
I'm in total agreement with you about the meaning of 1 Peter 4:12, and in context nothing could be clearer despite our brother's diminishing it to the ups and downs of everyday Christian living. I mean why would the Holy Spirit even bring it up at all? Peter's clearly stating that the "fiery trial" hasn't come yet, So, if everyday trials and tribulations haven't come yet, what have they been living up to that point? It is the fiery trial of Gods judgement which begins at the household of God which Peter said was ready to take place.

1Peter 4:
12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 14If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. 16Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And
“If the righteous is scarcely saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
19Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus is referring to the signs that would lead up to the destruction of the temple, which is the whole premise of the Olivet discourse and James is claiming that they had seen all those signs then
Matthew 24:32Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
I'm in total agreement with you about the meaning of 1 Peter 4:12, and in context nothing could be clearer despite our brother's diminishing it to the ups and downs of everyday Christian living. I mean why would the Holy Spirit even bring it up at all? Peter's clearly stating that the "fiery trial" hasn't come yet, So, if everyday trials and tribulations haven't come yet, what have they been living up to that point? It is the fiery trial of Gods judgement which begins at the household of God which Peter said was ready to take place.

1Peter 4:
12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 14If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. 16Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And
“If the righteous is scarcely saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
19Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

Ed, true or false? 1 Peter 4 is about the daily trials and tribulation of his disciples and the fellow Christians in their flock.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Read Dan 9:

What you call convoluted is a cop-out. You know it’s the truth that proves a 7-year Trib. You keep avoiding Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

A “week” in Daniel is seven years. Do your homework, please. A “half of the week” is 3.5 years. Do your homework, please. The Trib is seven years long, just as Daniel says (“one week”). He cites “one week” then “half of the week.” Then he mentions “abominations.” Daniel just summarized the first 3.5 years leading to the midpoint when abomination occurs (Matt 24:15). Then he cites “the decreed end” which is about the second half of the 7-year Trib when the bowl judgments are poured out and the AC goes to his destruction: Rev 19:20 (ESV): And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Daniel 9: 24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
Jesus comes after the 62 weeks which is the 70th week. Based on Daniel's 70 week prophecy, For the first 3-1/2 years Jesus went only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In the last 3-1/2 years, ad66-70, He poured out His wrath on the Holy City when He sent the Roman army to desolate it.

"the prince who is to come" is Christ the Nagid, the anointed ruler. Strong's Hebrew: 5057. נָגִיד (nagid) -- Leader, Ruler, Prince, Noble, Commander
Usage: The term "nagid" is used in the Hebrew Bible to denote a leader or ruler, often with a connotation of divinely appointed authority. It is used to describe individuals who hold positions of significant influence and responsibility, such as kings, princes, and military commanders. The word implies not just political or military leadership but also moral and spiritual guidance, as these leaders were often seen as representatives of God's will.
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Israel, leadership was often seen as a divine mandate. The "nagid" was expected to lead with wisdom, justice, and adherence to God's laws. This role was not merely administrative but also spiritual, as leaders were to guide the people in covenant faithfulness. The concept of a "nagid" reflects the theocratic nature of Israelite society, where political and religious duties were intertwined.

There is literally no 7 year tribulation to be found anywhere. The church would go through many tribulations right up until they would enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Daniel 9: 24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
Jesus comes after the 62 weeks which is the 70th week. Based on Daniel's 70 week prophecy, For the first 3-1/2 years Jesus went only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In the last 3-1/2 years, ad66-70, He poured out His wrath on the Holy City when He sent the Roman army to desolate it.

"the prince who is to come" is Christ the Nagid, the anointed ruler. Strong's Hebrew: 5057. נָגִיד (nagid) -- Leader, Ruler, Prince, Noble, Commander
Usage: The term "nagid" is used in the Hebrew Bible to denote a leader or ruler, often with a connotation of divinely appointed authority. It is used to describe individuals who hold positions of significant influence and responsibility, such as kings, princes, and military commanders. The word implies not just political or military leadership but also moral and spiritual guidance, as these leaders were often seen as representatives of God's will.
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Israel, leadership was often seen as a divine mandate. The "nagid" was expected to lead with wisdom, justice, and adherence to God's laws. This role was not merely administrative but also spiritual, as leaders were to guide the people in covenant faithfulness. The concept of a "nagid" reflects the theocratic nature of Israelite society, where political and religious duties were intertwined.

There is literally no 7 year tribulation to be found anywhere. The church would go through many tribulations right up until they would enter the Kingdom of God.

Ed, you can ignore Daniel 9:27 all you want. That is your choice.

You can also ignore what Jesus said about the pre-Trib rapture in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial, ..."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Daniel 9: 24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
Jesus comes after the 62 weeks which is the 70th week. Based on Daniel's 70 week prophecy, For the first 3-1/2 years Jesus went only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In the last 3-1/2 years, ad66-70, He poured out His wrath on the Holy City when He sent the Roman army to desolate it.

"the prince who is to come" is Christ the Nagid, the anointed ruler. Strong's Hebrew: 5057. נָגִיד (nagid) -- Leader, Ruler, Prince, Noble, Commander
Usage: The term "nagid" is used in the Hebrew Bible to denote a leader or ruler, often with a connotation of divinely appointed authority. It is used to describe individuals who hold positions of significant influence and responsibility, such as kings, princes, and military commanders. The word implies not just political or military leadership but also moral and spiritual guidance, as these leaders were often seen as representatives of God's will.
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Israel, leadership was often seen as a divine mandate. The "nagid" was expected to lead with wisdom, justice, and adherence to God's laws. This role was not merely administrative but also spiritual, as leaders were to guide the people in covenant faithfulness. The concept of a "nagid" reflects the theocratic nature of Israelite society, where political and religious duties were intertwined.

There is literally no 7 year tribulation to be found anywhere. The church would go through many tribulations right up until they would enter the Kingdom of God.

Dan 9 is a very comprehensive historical record that covers different timeframes. Only verse 27 is about the future Trib. Verse 27 says the the Trib will be "one week" long, and that translates into seven consecutive years. Matt 24:4-28 detail what Daniel 9:27 summarizes.

Ed, I have the proof on my side. You need to read those verses to see the truth about the future Trib. The other verses in Dan 9 are unrelated to the future Trib.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, true or false? 1 Peter 4 is about the daily trials and tribulation of his disciples and the fellow Christians in their flock.

False, that's not what it says. This is referring to Rev 3:10, as Peter had just finished saying: 1Peter 4:7The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. Peter was about to be crucified fulfilling how the Lord said he would die John 21:19.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
You still haven't explained how you "have kept my word about patient endurance". That was past tense 2000 years ago.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

False, that's not what it says. This is referring to Rev 3:10, as Peter had just finished saying: 1Peter 4:7The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. Peter was about to be crucified fulfilling how the Lord said he would die John 21:19.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
You still haven't explained how you "have kept my word about patient endurance". That was past tense 2000 years ago.

Wrong, and here’s proof:

First, there’s no “firery trial” in the Trib.

1 Peter 4:1 (NIV): Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

Peter was commenting on physical abuse; a topic intimately related to his disciples.

Verse 17: For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us,

“Us” are his disciples.

Who is kept from the Trib, per Jesus in Rev 3:10? Answer: “You” believers.

Who does Jesus cite to be tried in the hour of trial? “Those who dwell on the earth.” They are the unbelievers in the Trib, who are left behind after “you” are pre-Trib raptured in Rev 4:1.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

False, that's not what it says. This is referring to Rev 3:10, as Peter had just finished saying: 1Peter 4:7The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. Peter was about to be crucified fulfilling how the Lord said he would die John 21:19.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
You still haven't explained how you "have kept my word about patient endurance". That was past tense 2000 years ago.

Ed, what’s the purpose of the Trib?

The Trib is for hardcore unbelievers. They are Jews and Gentiles. God subjects them to 21 judgments of wrath. God thereby proves He is God and that He is all-powerful. God also proves that He is merciful by deploying the 144k to initiate the greatest revival in the Trib.

God is seeking repentance from those hardcore unbelievers. Lacking that, they are condemned.

Do you need to repent? Are you a hardcore unbeliever? Our sins are blotted out: Isaiah 43:25. We do not face any potential condemnation: Romans 8:1. We have passed the only “test” by having faith in Jesus Christ: Ephesians 2:8-9.

We are kept from the Trib: Rev 3:10. We will be pre-Trib raptured by the fulfillment of Rev 4:1.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Wrong, and here’s proof:

First, there’s no “firery trial” in the Trib.

1 Peter 4:1 (NIV): Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

Peter was commenting on physical abuse; a topic intimately related to his disciples.

Verse 17: For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us,

“Us” are his disciples.

Who is kept from the Trib, per Jesus in Rev 3:10? Answer: “You” believers.

Who does Jesus cite to be tried in the hour of trial? “Those who dwell on the earth.” They are the unbelievers in the Trib, who are left behind after “you” are pre-Trib raptured in Rev 4:1.

You mean except for the great multitude of baby Christians left to fend for themselves. No preacher, no teacher, no church, no Holy Spirit to baptize them into Christ. Basically abandoned to be martyred. So, in reality, there's a great multitude of Christians who are part of "those who dwell on the earth" and do go through the "hour of trial".

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You mean except for the great multitude of baby Christians left to fend for themselves. No preacher, no teacher, no church, no Holy Spirit to baptize them into Christ. Basically abandoned to be martyred. So, in reality, there's a great multitude of Christians who are part of "those who dwell on the earth" and do go through the "hour of trial".

Ed, you’re making up stuff. I’ve gone over the GM. They were all unbelievers left behind after the pre-Trib rapture. The 144k, protected by God, started the greatest revival, saving a multitude.

“Those who dwell on the earth” in the Trib, are all unbelievers. Rev 11:10 is a great example of “those who dwell on the earth” during the Trib. All are proven to be unbelievers.

You agreed that “you” in Rev 3:10 will be kept from the Trib. Rev 3:10 is not fulfilled. “You” will be today’s living Christians, should the pre-Trib rapture happen today.